VA deferring aircraft deliveries

[oldxfr8dog]

BS. You had at least 28 pilots who were in danger of losing their licenses because they flew the unapproved "proving runs." Every one of them was a volunteer.

Pretty easy to find 28 guys out of 2000 when the pay was so good. They weren't flying nearly as much as they were being credited and they were credited A LOT, as in an extra 40-50 hours of time-and-a-half. It went very senior.
The sad thing is that the test data reflected better alertness and in a perfect world could have been safer.
The reality is that neither jetblue nor any other airline that I know of has the integrity to operate the flights as tested. One mx delay, one tech stop, one medical divert, etc, and it would have become a 16 hour duty day with a transcon turn.
Plus, the camel's nose was under the tent: Jb was already thinking of "L"-shaped pairings. LGB-JFL-FLL. More than 8 hours, but completely defeating the purpose of staying in your circadian rhythm.
Quietly or not, I'm glad it was stillborn.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Careful bro, I don't know any pilots at JetBlue who wanted this......or for that matter were even asked their opinion. The "guys" were Neeleman.

We had approval from the POI, who subsequently got in trouble for sanctioning this. Like I said, I didn't know any.......... and 28 pilots is hardly a representative of this pilot group.

First its all Neeleman...no pilots wanted to do this. Sounds like you need to get your story straight.

Just to add a note: Although I personally think a transcon turn is dangerous for 2 pilots, the idea of working 10 days a month and crediting 90-92 hours is enticing.

Of course you do.

The issue was not only the POI; for example several crews at the direction of JetBlue flew segments without a legal additional crewmember as required by part 121 supplemental. This is where the spam really hit the fan and it is only because the FAA was directly involved in the nonsense that the whole thing magically went quietly away.

Thank you for your honesty. Amazing how revisionist history has taken hold with the junior pilots at jetBlue.

If crews are only working 10 days a month how long do you think it will take the ATA to petition the FAA to relax weekly and monthly limits? After that, there will be pressure on hourly pay since a pilot could easily earn >$300k annually flying domestically with relaxed limits. Their ultimate goal: pilots working >150 hours/month for the same annual W-2 as today.

After all the dust settles we all could easily end up working more for the same paycheck. IMHO, no thanks.

Exactly the point I brought up at the time. If jetBlue was granted the waiver, Alaska Airlines would have been in there the next day asking for the same thing. And so would every other carrier who had transcon service on the schedule. And the results would have been exactly what Chunky describes.

I agree. I was just saying it was an enticing thought. But, I know....you know that JB management wasn't doing it for us. And just to clarify......I believe it is/was dangerous.

Nice backpedal. But I bet you would have done it without saying boo. Perhaps you need to listen to some of you older, wiser Captains.

The reality is that neither jetblue nor any other airline that I know of has the integrity to operate the flights as tested. One mx delay, one tech stop, one medical divert, etc, and it would have become a 16 hour duty day with a transcon turn.

I disagree. As long as the glitches were infrequent, EVERY airline would have loved this kind of waiver. Sure, they might occasionally run into a problem, but airlines deal with that every day. And as long as you have pilots willing to extend their duty periods and/or reserves on both coasts to cover these eventualities, the program is ON.

Quietly or not, I'm glad it was stillborn.

Amen to that. Personally, I wish the "experiment" had never taken place. Pilot Unions (not just ALPA) have fought for flight time/duty time limits, WOCL limits and adequate rest requirements for 75 years only to ALMOST having the whole thing undone by a bunch of rah-rah non-Union jamokes trying to kiss up to jetBlue management. And why did they do it? Because AT THE TIME the wage rate was such that maxing out on overtime was the only way to come close to Legacy wages.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

While JetBlue did a few test flights, nothing became of this. However, over at Delta, about the same time, they got FAA approval to exceed the 16 hour duty limit to operate their JFK-BOM flight.

 

[curtaindriver]

First its all Neeleman...no pilots wanted to do this. Sounds like you need to get your story straight.



Of course you do.



Thank you for your honesty. Amazing how revisionist history has taken hold with the junior pilots at jetBlue.



Exactly the point I brought up at the time. If jetBlue was granted the waiver, Alaska Airlines would have been in there the next day asking for the same thing. And so would every other carrier who had transcon service on the schedule. And the results would have been exactly what Chunky describes.



Nice backpedal. But I bet you would have done it without saying boo. Perhaps you need to listen to some of you older, wiser Captains.



I disagree. As long as the glitches were infrequent, EVERY airline would have loved this kind of waiver. Sure, they might occasionally run into a problem, but airlines deal with that every day. And as long as you have pilots willing to extend their duty periods and/or reserves on both coasts to cover these eventualities, the program is ON.



Amen to that. Personally, I wish the "experiment" had never taken place. Pilot Unions (not just ALPA) have fought for flight time/duty time limits, WOCL limits and adequate rest requirements for 75 years only to ALMOST having the whole thing undone by a bunch of rah-rah non-Union jamokes trying to kiss up to jetBlue management. And why did they do it? Because AT THE TIME the wage rate was such that maxing out on overtime was the only way to come close to Legacy wages.

Back pedal? I said it was dangerous in both of my posts. Somebody, maybe you said 28 pilots, obviously know more than I do about it. I referred to your post when you painted this whole pilot group with the same brush. So, are you one of those older and wiser captains I should be listening to? I'll grant you the older. Anybody who doesn't think 10 days of work for 90 hours of pay is enticing is a liar. And again, just so you can sink this in.......myself and anybody else that I know here DID NOT know this was happening, 28 pilots don't represent this pilot group.

CD

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Fubijaakr has obviously made a lot of poor choices in his life and is looking for someone to blame for the outcome.

 

[NEDude]

While JetBlue did a few test flights, nothing became of this. However, over at Delta, about the same time, they got FAA approval to exceed the 16 hour duty limit to operate their JFK-BOM flight.

That is okay, Delta is an ALPA, legacy carrier - they can do no wrong.

 

[Fubijaakr]

That is okay, Delta is an ALPA, legacy carrier - they can do no wrong.

The difference is Delta got FAA approval. B6 got a wink and a nod from their POI and then FLEW revenue passenger flights illegally. There's a big difference, even though you can't understand it.

 

[bluechunks]

While JetBlue did a few test flights, nothing became of this. However, over at Delta, about the same time, they got FAA approval to exceed the 16 hour duty limit to operate their JFK-BOM flight.

Yeah, just ignore the big issue: there was no FAA guidance for >16 hr flights because up to then there was no commercial airliner that had the legs for >16 hr segments. Add in the fact that DAL was using a full crew complement with an ACTUAL dedicated pilot rest compartment (not the jumpseat or an economy seat like JB) and it's pretty easy to see why the FAA ruled the way they did for DAL.

The irony when a JB crew involved with the test fell asleep (as reported by the medical monitoring equipment they were wearing) and and used "fatigue" in a FAA ASAP report was not lost on many.

 

[NEDude]

The difference is Delta got FAA approval. B6 got a wink and a nod from their POI and then FLEW revenue passenger flights illegally. There's a big difference, even though you can't understand it.

Apparently you forgot this post you just made:

Amen to that. Personally, I wish the "experiment" had never taken place. Pilot Unions (not just ALPA) have fought for flight time/duty time limits, WOCL limits and adequate rest requirements for 75 years only to ALMOST having the whole thing undone by a bunch of rah-rah non-Union jamokes trying to kiss up to jetBlue management. And why did they do it? Because AT THE TIME the wage rate was such that maxing out on overtime was the only way to come close to Legacy wages.

An ALPA carrier petitioned the FAA to extend the 16 hour duty and was successful. Why did ALPA not stand up and fight against this? I thought pilot unions "have fought for flight time/duty time limits, WOCL limits and adequate rest requirements for 75 years". Or was this somehow the fault of "a bunch of rah-rah non-Union jamokes"?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Add in the fact that DAL was using a full crew complement with an ACTUAL dedicated pilot rest compartment (not the jumpseat or an economy seat like JB) and it's pretty easy to see why the FAA ruled the way they did for DAL.

Seriously, NEDude are you being purposely obtuse or are you just stupid? Read Chunky's quote. When properly crewed and rest facilities are available, long range flying is perfectly acceptable.

Again, I guess the facts don't matter once you swallow the red pill. Only the alternate reality that you so obviously subscribe to.

 

[suupah]

If oil prices continue their rise then VX is in trouble. Their stage length includes many transcons, something you don't want with high oil prices. They need to find some nice, profitable short routes to mix in with their current route structure.

Much easier to do in the NE then left coast.

 

[NEDude]

Seriously, NEDude are you being purposely obtuse or are you just stupid? Read Chunky's quote. When properly crewed and rest facilities are available, long range flying is perfectly acceptable.

Again, I guess the facts don't matter once you swallow the red pill. Only the alternate reality that you so obviously subscribe to.

Coming from the man who only has the ability to blame start-ups for the state of the profession, completely oblivious to the multiple factors - such as ALPA voting to outsource jobs to low paying regionals - it is pretty bold to accuse others of being 'stupid'.

You are the king of ignoring facts.

 

[Fubijaakr]

All I can tell you, Dude, is that my F/O observed (unprompted) that his neighbor, a VX Captain, makes LESS than he does.

That says it all.

 

[Q400 Gear Bitch]

All I can tell you, Dude, is that my F/O observed (unprompted) that his neighbor, a VX Captain, makes LESS than he does.

That says it all.

True story, until June.

 

[Lake Alice]

If you are going to point fingers do so in the direction of SWA. Jetblue did flights with the limited authority of a POI. What's SWA's excuse. Who else can wreck planes, skip maintenance and still get their POI/FAA to sign of on absolutely everything.