Usfs

[psysicx]

Does the forest service have full time pilot slots?I know that they have lots of contracts with companies.How hard is it to get on with flying smoke jumpers and does it take additional training.I have heard that they need some of card.

 

[avbug]

Yes, USFS does have agency pilots. Some jumper positions are agency positions, some are contracted. Presently the primary mount for dropping jumpes is the turbine DC-3, the basler conversion.

The USFS also employs leadplane pilots, and is transitioning to the King Air and Turbocommander 690 in lieu of the Barons that have been phased out as of last year. Leadplane positions are being converted to follow the BLM lead example, and are becoming ASM's; aerial supervision modules. In these roles, a leadplane pilot acts as ATCO (air tanker coordinator) flies with an ATGS or air tactical group supervisor (also called "air attack,"), taking over the role of both air attack and lead in one platform.

The last advertised position I've seen is still open for a few days; it's a lead position based in Lancaster, in California.

 

[psysicx]

Thanks for that post.I would imagine that its competitve to get on.Anybody know what kind of pay,schedule,or benefits are.And do people work with the forest service for 20 years,is it considered a good job.Also what are some of the other bases.They used to have one in San Bernidido area.And are they still using sherpas.Thanks again.

 

[avbug]

I can't tell you on the Sherpas. I know that several USFS pilots post here, at least one of whom is a DC-3T pilot for the smoke jumper program. Hopefully one can post the specifics of their job to you. Getting on can certainly be difficult.

I've put in for Lead/ASM positions on several occasions. In each case, I had varying levels of experience including experience in type, and the job in each case went to someone with far less experience...in at least one case to someone who was picked out before the vacancy anouncement ever got published. For one position, I was the only candidate of whom I'm aware that had air attack experience, ground fire experience, heavy tanker and single engine tanker experience, plus recent time in type and a current simuflite check in the type (at the time), yet my application was returned and rejected because of "lack of experience." The person hired had none of that...and I can't say anything more about it because of reasons that can't be provided publically. Suffice it to say, getting on is far more than merely having ample qualification.

 

[urflyingme?!]

Hows the song go?
"Just some good ole' boys....."

 

[psysicx]

It seems anything with the forest service is who you know.So its suffice to say that its a good job that most people won't leave.Right now I am trying to get on as a wildland firefighter to pay for college and hopefully get my foot in the door.And did you apply for the one in Lancaster?

 

[Vector4fun]

For one position, I was the only candidate of whom I'm aware that had air attack experience, ground fire experience, heavy tanker and single engine tanker experience, plus recent time in type and a current simuflite check in the type (at the time), yet my application was returned and rejected because of "lack of experience." The person hired had none of that...and I can't say anything more about it because of reasons that can't be provided publically. Suffice it to say, getting on is far more than merely having ample qualification.

Avbug,

Sounds a lot like bidding on certain ATC facilities in years past...

Bidding is like a big Dog-n-Pony show, a waste of time and paper pulp. Selections are often still based on connections and chits (or evidence) collected.....

 

[avbug]

Vacancy announcements will be posted at the OPM website, at www.usajobs.opm.gov


You can visit the particular current vacancy announcement at:

http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/getjob.asp?JobID=26181166&AVSDM=2005%2D01%2D29+05%3A48%3A14&Logo=0&q=pilot&FedEmp=N&sort=rv&vw=d&brd=3876&ss=0&FedPub=Y&SUBMIT1.x=88&SUBMIT1.y=20

I don't know that I would call it a good old boys club, especially since this time around it didn't go to a boy...

It's the government.

Some time ago a vacancy anouncement came up for a lead position in northern california, and I applied. I didn't hear back, which is usually the case, and I followed up a couple of months later with a call to the office handling the anouncement. The individual answering the phone said my name didn't ring a bell, that she wanted to get my file, would I hang on for a moment.

When she returned, she said I met all the qualifications, but it appeared I was white. I said that not only was I, but still am. She asked if I am handicapped, to which I replied I am not (she knew this; it's on the form on the questionaire). She asked if perhaps I might be gay. Nope, not last time I checked. I suggested she call my wife for verification. And on down the list. Not female. Nope. And so on. When she was done, she said the agency was always glad for applicants like me, because we make the stats look good, but that I didn't stand a snowballs chance of getting hired. Not enough preference points.

It's not about the qualifications, it's about preference points.

I'll tell you this straight up and it's no lie; apply as a handicapped ethnic gay female veteran, and you're in.

 

[psysicx]

So avbug what kind of work do you do now.Would it help to do an intern and make some connections.

 

[avbug]

Various assignments, several employers.

I can't tell you about internship, and I'm not aware of any such positions for pilot slots. All you can do is apply, like everyone else.

 

[414Flyer]

Yeah, and it takes more than just flight hours usually. It helps to have several seasons of flying air attack or tanker experience, and anything else you can do to increase qualifications in wildland fire helps too.

 

[psysicx]

Can anybody list what companies do air attack to get experience.

 

[moving2vegas]

I fly air attack and usually agree with avbug (most of the time). I've applied to all the lead plane/ smoke jumper positions in the last 5 years. I have 4 years experience on the ground and 10 years flying (3 aerial firefighting) and only made the hiring list once. As for QOL (with the usfs)... you're on the road 6 months out of the year and you'll start at 40K a year. You're doing a dangerous job, low and slow over hostile terain. The rest of the year you ride a desk and put up with government BS. If you think it's like the movie "always"... forget it.

If you want some air attack info PM me with your Quals and a resume. I know every operator in this industry and I won't pi$$ them off by passing around phone numbers to every pilot out there. It's a small community.

 

[psysicx]

Why are they on the road for six months.I know that fire seasons can vary.Like last summer there were not very many fires.And why is it so hard to get on.Do you have to know that right person.Also how hard is it to get on as a smoke jumper.I know you need prior experience.

 

[414Flyer]

Well its not an entry level job, and there are few openings. The mins are 1500TT, but 1500TT will not get you anything. It takes 1500TT to fly air attack for a contractor, and you will still have to do that for years to be competitive. Plus you are competing with others from tankers too. Usually when there is an opening, its a single opening at a time.

 

[psysicx]

How often is there job postings.Also are there still going to be fire bombers or are they gone.I heard lots of them went out of business.And 414 do you fly for the forest service.

 

[414Flyer]

There may be up to 20 large airtankers, hopefully the one I flew briefly last year will be back, but unknown at this point. I am working on some air attack jobs too in case.

No, I am not USFS, but I really enjoy wildland firefighting, both aerial and ground work. I am applying for those USFS jobs too

 

[psysicx]

Can anybody tell me what the pay is like for fire attack and bombers?I know a ground guy who makes a lot if the fire season is busy.

 

[rchcfi]

Well, it depends on who you get on with. I know my company just renewed their contracts and needs Air Attack pilots bad. I would (and really want to) do it again. But I've moved up into the Citation. Hopefully I will get to be a relief pilot at least, as it is fun work (if you can call it that). PM me if you want more info on a job. And it's 1500 PIC, not TT...A little confusion there.

 

[moving2vegas]

You're on the road because you're a national resource and go where the fires are. Have plane will travel theory. There's a small number of lead/ jump planes and fires everywhere. You have to have tons of experience and know someone to get a job.

 

[414Flyer]

You can probably get 30-40K doing air attack for a good operator, depending how long you fly, how many hours, etc. Tanker pay is higher, but you have better odds of winning the lottery than getting into a heavy as a new copilot this year

 

[psysicx]

So its seems that the forest service is the majors of aerial firefighting.And does each company do a certain area or can they cover the whole US?

 

[rchcfi]

Especially now, you are NATIONWIDE in a P-3

 

[psysicx]

What kind of planes do air attack use.It seems there is a varity.

 

[rchcfi]

everything and anything......Queen Airs, Aero Commanders, Twin Cessnas, Single Cessnas......

 

[psysicx]

Thanks for the info.

 

[avbug]

The only large air tankers remaining that will be contracted are P-3's. An earnest effort is underway to secure at least some positions for P-2's, but that's all that's likely to return this year, if any.

Forget trying to find a tanker job. Large air tankers are backlogged with VERY qualified people right now, and won't be looking for new meat for many years, if there any large air tankers a few years from now. You'll need substantial conventional gear and ag experience to find a seat in a SEAT (single engine air tanker).

Air attack is not a low level job by any means, and is far from "dangerous." The pay isn't great, but on a good month you can make over four grand. What you make depends on the employer.

Lead positions are few and far between.

USFS used to be the biggest contractor of aircraft, but now that title belongs to the BLM. USFS voted themselves out by cancelling all the large air tanker contracts last year, bringing a few back, and grounding many of their agency aircraft due to mind numbing political concerns that had no backing or rational foundation.

If you fly helicopters, your opportunities in fire are far greater...but so are the qualifications.

 

[moving2vegas]

"The pay isn't great, but on a good month you can make over four grand"

If your making 4k a month flying air attack...quit. Your employer is an A$$ because he's making 20X that amount.

 

[414Flyer]

The only large air tankers remaining that will be contracted are P-3's. An earnest effort is underway to secure at least some positions for P-2's, but that's all that's likely to return this year, if any.

Do you actually have inside knowledge or a secret source for this?

Or is this your opinion?

 

[avbug]

Not necessarily. You're suggesting that an air attack platform is bringing in eighty thousand dollars a month? Not even remotely close.

I flew a twin commander doing air attack for a time. The hourly rate was two fifty an hour, with an hour gauranteed a day. Do the math.

The tanker I fly doesn't bring in the amount of money a month that you describe,and I gaurantee it brings in more money than an air attack platform, both per hour, and per day.

In fact, flying the tanker doesn't bring in that kind of money, either. Now I could be wrong; you've flown air attack, and I've flown air attack for several operators, as well as heavy tankers and SEATs, as well as several years on ground doing fires (and a few seasons of chasing fires doing remote area patrols)...you're probably seen a lot more.

Do you fill in the OAS 23's and see what the company is getting? If you're company is getting eighty grand a month for a shrike, I'd sure like to know who it is. Wow. That's twenty six hundred bucks a day; what a large air tanker or medium helicopter should be getting...but an air attack? Not hardly.

Do you actually have inside knowledge or a secret source for this?

Or is this your opinion?

It's opinion, based on facts.

I returned from the national interagency fire center yesterday, after spending several days with people I can't identify for obvious reasons, and a general consensus is that while things may change, the prognosis doesn't look different for this year than last.

Of course it may be different. I very much doubt that you're going to see DC-4's out there this time. You might. But look at where we arrived last season. P-3's, several of which had structural cracks of significance during the season, were released for work. Two, and only two P-2's were put back on, with the provision that they must fly 300 hours during the season...a nearly impossible task even if they'd been given the entire season to do it...to gather the data that was demanded to release the remainder of that fleet.

With Kern gone, things might change, but don't count on it. Already the heavy tanker industry has been hit with two solid audits, one by Sandia Labs and the other by Dyncorp, both of which brought out many of the operators with flying colors (and others who refused to participate, and are now gone). That's two internationally recognized organizations doing detailed in-depth analyses of the fleets, their maintenance, survivability, and operational readiness, and both providing a green flag to go to work. After Sandia, all operational issues were addressed and improved upon, and the blessing given. After Dyncorp, the same, with companies like Neptune being given very high marks for their maintenance, aircraft, operations, etc.

What did all that achieve? Nada. A big goose egg. The political agenda hanging over the program was bigger and badder than common sense, truth, or reality. Why should that change? Two of the largest, most recognized organizations that could have been called on to do the evaluations have both stipulated that the tankers should be released to go to work, and it isn't happening...in fact the contracts were cancelled after the fact without any foundation at all. As you well know. Never the less, the contracts were cancelled, and stayed cancelled.

Minden is tanking a BAE 146. Other projects are underway. But the move has been in the push for some time now to pull radial engines off the fireline, and there won't be a big effort made on the part of the government to bring them back. Think about it. Two P-2s last year. Two. Out of how many?

The P-2 is far more likely to be resurrected than the DC-4. Certainly the 4Y and C130 won't be back...and the truth is that the P3 has more problems, more limitations, and is at far greater risk, than the C130 when it comes to the fire operations...certainly the P3 sees no less damage. (The P3 is over it's zero fuel weight just with the retardant...)

The behavior of those in the heavy tanker industry has been sluggish. Certainly some lobbying effort has been expended, but the writing has been on the wall. The efforts of the AAP have been truly sad, and the level of professionalism in that segment of the industry has gone from professional to childish in many cases. (I watched a large tanker pilot in a federal fire meeting a few days ago stand and screech and argue such that the meeting ground to a halt, and he left the meeting shortly thereafter).

Just two years ago when I suggested that the industry ought to follow the example of what Mark Bickham has established for the SEAT program with multiple levels of industry wide training and introspection annually, the industry at large laughed. Mr. Bickhams program has elevated the status of the SEATs and provided credibility that was lacking, whereas the large air tanker contracts got cancelled. Not just for that reason, but no effort at a unified industry level was undertaken at all in the LAT arena...yet folks wonder why things are as they are.

I have no magic insight into what will happen, but based on things as they are, I doubt that big, miraculous changes will occur. I hope they do. I hope that all dedicated large air tankers can be put back on line where they belong. Until the professionalism of the LAT community dropped to that of a kindergarten level, I wore a green ribbon of solidarity...though when I saw what was going on I trampled it underfoot in the retardant. I still support the efforts, from Barbara Cubins PSOB legislation to efforts by each large air tanker company to breathe life into a tenuous situation. I don't see big changes happening, though I will certainly applaud if they do.