USAPA wins appeal!!!!!!

[Fast43]

I don't think it was right to put widebody captains and FOs on the top of the list. I don't think a widebody FO is a higher position than a narrowbody captain. The higher number of retirements should have been accounted for, though I think that's one reason Nicolau put all the widebody pilots on the top of the list, and not just the captains.

Should the list have come out more favorable to the East pilots? Probably. Is it far enough out of line to discount the whole arbitration process? No.

The bottom line is you are setting up a situation where the future of merging seniority lists is that the pilots coming from the smaller airline will be voted out of their rightful place on the list by the larger pilot group.[/QUOTE]


We have a winner............

usapa is so nearsighted that they fail to understand the stage they are setting for a Merger with an larger carrier. If the larger group doesn't like the Arbitrated list that is at least guaranteed based on the McCaskill-Bond law, they will just toss it and do what they want.

Fast

 

[johnnyb]

Don't look now but many of those same Alpa Gravy train boys are now running your union..........


Majority Rules is tempered with the constraint, A union cannot advance the Majority at the expense of the Minority.

Fast

Name 3 - better yet just name the position they hold in the Union.

As for the latter, a union most certainly can advance the Majority at the expense of the minority - proven true with every furlough.

 

[Fast43]

Name 3 - better yet just name the position they hold in the Union.

As for the latter, a union most certainly can advance the Majority at the expense of the minority - proven true with every furlough.

Parella..............grievance chairman then and now.........getting a nice stipend and 85 hours on an A/C she wishes she could hold.

cleary...............Bos Mec..............first order of business as prez........give himself a stipend every month.

Mowery D..................Merger Com.


Certainly you realize it is the company that furloughs pilots and not the union. What does that have to do with usapa negotiating for a goal that advances the Majority at the expense of the Minority.


Fast

 

[BeCareful!]

Parella's pay is in accordance with ALPA's LOA 95. I don't like it, but they cannot pick and choose what parts of the contract they abide by. The provisions of LOA 95 are not being pursued in negotiations, so that will be dropped in the next contract.

What you said about Cleary is a lie.

The only problem with your theory about the Majority "advancing" at the expense of the Minority is: where are we starting from? You guys have the idea that the nic is already in place, so anything other than that is some kind of "loss" for you. It's kinda sad to see you guys imagining that list is in use, and guaging your tremendous loss based on that totally hypothetical, totally unfounded fantasy.

The reality is you fly a small fleet of narrow bodies out of PHX just like you did before the merger. After we truly merge, you'll have access to a much bigger network with trans Atlantic flying if you like, or, alternately, you'll enjoy protection from the larger, more senior group raiding your western base. This a gain, not a loss. We aren't taking anything from you, only enhancing your careers. That's what's happening in the real world, not the Internet play ground of FI.com, where AWA pilots are playing widebody captains in their dreams (maybe on Flight Sim).

Best wishes.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Parella's pay is in accordance with ALPA's LOA 95. I don't like it, but they cannot pick and choose what parts of the contract they abide by.

Hold the phone! ALPA is gone, buddy. USAPA doesn't have to abide by any of ALPA's old dirty laundry, right? You know "New sheriff in town" and all that BS.

Go back to the picking and choosing part, that was hysterical!

 

[BeCareful!]

Hold the phone! ALPA is gone, buddy. USAPA doesn't have to abide by any of ALPA's old dirty laundry, right? You know "New sheriff in town" and all that BS.

Go back to the picking and choosing part, that was hysterical!

The only hysterical thing here is your ignorance. Sean Hannity would be proud of ya, though; that was some cheap rhetoric right in line with his shtick. What part of the contract is USAPA not complying with? In fact, what has USAPA done that wasn't completely in compliance with RLA, federal laws, labor laws, etc....? Didn't you just spend, like, $1.8 million finding out? (I think you still owe some money on that tab, don't cha?)

"New sheriff in town?" And all that BS? That's obviously your BS. It has nothing to do with reality.

 

[TWA Dude]

We aren't taking anything from you, only enhancing your careers.

Well golly, why didn't either the arbitrator nor two pilot neutrals notice that? They stated "... [FONT=&quot]US Airways pilots had more to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]gain from the merger than their new colleagues." The merger (and not the AWA pilots) [/FONT]greatly enhanced the East careers. As you've noticed, however, since the merger the West has suffered furloughs and stagnation while the East has recalled and enjoyed upgrades. So absolutely positively you do NOT intend to enhance our careers. You only wish to rebuild yours off our backs. Do not insult our intelligence by stating otherwise.

 

[eaglesview]

Well golly, why didn't either the arbitrator nor two pilot neutrals notice that? They stated "... [FONT=&quot]US Airways pilots had more to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]gain from the merger than their new colleagues." The merger (and not the AWA pilots) [/FONT]greatly enhanced the East careers. As you've noticed, however, since the merger the West has suffered furloughs and stagnation while the East has recalled and enjoyed upgrades. So absolutely positively you do NOT intend to enhance our careers. You only wish to rebuild yours off our backs. Do not insult our intelligence by stating otherwise.

Hello, the apologist here!! That is the problem!! The East has no motivation to complete the merger. Their careers (upgrade potential) are better if they are left to themselves. IMO until that is addressed there will be no peace.

OK go ahead call me names.

 

[becket]

George Nicolau's list was inane. The 9th circuit verified it.

The only thing the 9th verified was the fact that if the company was dumb enough, and if your majority ratified a DOH contract, you'd be nailed to a wall "unquestionably".

That's not much of a win. You're going to be on lOA 93 for years....indefinately actually. The West is locked and loaded, you're fake union isn't going to get away with jack ******************** except maintain their position as the laughing stock of the industry.

The clock has been reset two years ago...USAPA promising something they now KNOW they can't deliver. Congratulations.

 

[BeCareful!]

Hey bucket....mark my words: you're wrong.

 

[Lampshade]

Spirit pilots will be making more than the eastholes and can hold there heads high unlike some unions.

 

[TWA Dude]

That is the problem!! The East has no motivation to complete the merger.

No, the East's problem is their lack of integrity. Advantaging themselves at the West's expense is merely their unethical attempt at a solution.

Their careers (upgrade potential) are better if they are left to themselves. IMO until that is addressed there will be no peace.

Well, we tried to address it. I'm sure they'll give us reason to end up back in court when the time is ripe.

OK go ahead call me names.

Saying you're an East apologist isn't name-calling, it's labeling. There's a difference. If the shoe fits...

 

[doh]

You enter into an agreement calling yourself, oh I don't know, let's say Cleary (apropos of nothing). You decide you are unhappy with the agreement. You change your name to, oh I don't know, let's say Shirley (or in the case of Monty Python fans Lorretta ). May you then refuse pay bills owed by Cleary because you are now a completely different person? That is really the essence of what the court must decide. The principals are the same. They have merely changed what they call themselves.

 

[Fast43]

Parella's pay is in accordance with ALPA's LOA 95. I don't like it, but they cannot pick and choose what parts of the contract they abide by. The provisions of LOA 95 are not being pursued in negotiations, so that will be dropped in the next contract.



Interesting you point that out actually. The TA (a contract) provides for Seprate ops until a Joint CBA exists. usapa intends to hold the company and the west to that commitment. But evidently they choose not to abide by the part in that same contract that commits it to use the result of Binding Arbitration in that same Joint CBA. Interesting how in usapa's "real world" it can just pick and choose what it wishes to abide by and and not.

What you said about Cleary is a lie.

Its no secret he installed a stipend for himself, did he not...............

The only problem with your theory about the Majority "advancing" at the expense of the Minority is: where are we starting from? You guys have the idea that the nic is already in place, so anything other than that is some kind of "loss" for you. It's kinda sad to see you guys imagining that list is in use, and guaging your tremendous loss based on that totally hypothetical, totally unfounded fantasy.

Evidently you are uninformed. It is the accepted list, and indeed it is not being used but it is there. The Nicolau list is the list generated by an agreed upon process and accepted by the Company. If usapa does nothing, it is the list. But as we know usapa wishes for another. For their to be another, they must compel the Co. to accept the new list (a change of lists) and reject the old one (the Nic). If you took the time to read the 9th ruling. You would not have seen anywhere it stated that usapa did not inherit the Nicolau list. Actually the opposite was said. They placed usapa into the same shoes as Alpa. The 9th said that usapa is "at least as free to abandon the list as was its predessor (Alpa). So as you should know by now. Alpa could do about 4 things with it.

1. Find that fraud or impropriety affected the list. None was found.

2 Seek consensual modifications to it with further negotiations. any changes to it would have to have MUTUAL CONSENT of both sides. This was tried several times, DEN meetings, Wye River etc. Mutual Consent was not reached.

3 Submit the list to the Company, This was done and the Co accepted it as it fit their requirements.

4 They could give in to the Majority group and Abandon the Nicolau list. This would have resulted in a DFR as they would have been found to have been Advancing the Majority group and disadvantaging the Minority group. Alpa evidently decided that even though they could abandon the list, it would be an expensive, painful and unsuccessful decision and chose not to. The 9th indicated that usapa is as free to do this as Alpa. Just as you are as free to violate, brake or ignore any law, rule or policy you choose. The Pain of that in this case as the 9th said is an Unquestionably RIPE DFR. Anything usapa proposes will be compared to the Nic.

Notable question for you here, If this was all Alpa's deal and usapa has said that they do not have to acknowledge it, Alpa isn't here anymore etc etc. So how would you now go about getting MUTUAL Consent with the only entity with legal standing to give that Consent (the West Merger Com) now that we are usapa there is no longer anyone to give consent for any Mutually Consentual solutions, your usapa vote took that possiblilty away. Call seham and ask, how soon they can call up the "other" party to the Arbitration and modifiy it.

The reality is you fly a small fleet of narrow bodies out of PHX just like you did before the merger. After we truly merge, you'll have access to a much bigger network with trans Atlantic flying if you like, or, alternately, you'll enjoy protection from the larger, more senior group raiding your western base. This a gain, not a loss. We aren't taking anything from you, only enhancing your careers. That's what's happening in the real world, not the Internet play ground of FI.com, where AWA pilots are playing widebody captains in their dreams (maybe on Flight Sim).

In the "real world" of Federal Court, this plan of yours was found to violate usapas obligation as the CBA to represent everyone Fairly. Yes, indeed it was Dismissed. And why is that....? Because it was too early. Not because its was incorrect in its finding of guilt. Go ahead and try it again. AOL will be there and ready.


Best wishes.

Fast43

 

[becket]

Hey bucket....mark my words: you're wrong.

Sure. What side did a Jury come down on the first time? Now let's say you get a contract ratified with DOH? How do you think You'll fare again?

You Eastholes are never going to escape LOA 93 or the Nic. If you want it to take years...no problem.

 

[BeCareful!]

Fast and Bucket....you guys spew the same old rhetoric. You need to catch up with current events. Those arguments are tired and outdated, and if you understood the importance of the published opinion of the 9th, you'd see how wrong you are.

Are you guys already saving for the next $2 million bill for your crack legal team? Or are you just trying to pay the current tab?

Popcorn is a cheap snack. Raman noodles, too....but watch the sodium totals.

 

[becket]

Fast and Bucket....you guys spew the same old rhetoric. You need to catch up with current events. Those arguments are tired and outdated, and if you understood the importance of the published opinion of the 9th, you'd see how wrong you are.

Are you guys already saving for the next $2 million bill for your crack legal team? Or are you just trying to pay the current tab?

Popcorn is a cheap snack. Raman noodles, too....but watch the sodium totals.

You bet. Read into it whatever you want. You're asking the courts to buy off on the new reality that during the process of binding arbitration, if the majority party is dissatisfied, then they have the right to not only ignore it's outcome, but to then use that majority to completely destroy the minority thus providing the majority benefits they would have never been able to obtain otherwise.

You think that's going to be the precedent moving fwd? The Effed up thing is...you do. This will go back to the court system at some point. If the Company want's instant access to the receiving end of litigation, they'll accept your DOH dream list. I think they're a hell of a lot smarter than their average East pilot employee to do that.

USAPA has been unable to prove....even slightly....that what they're attempting to do is legal. Nothing from the 9th indicates anything about the merits of the case only a clear warning that "under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit" USAPA must represent the West fairly.

Not USAPAs definition of "fair"...a neutral arbitrator. Money hasn't slowed the West pilots down one iota. Do you really think the West pilots are unwilling to spend another $1000.00 dollars each just to lay down and let you Cowardly Scabs slit their throats? I spend that in a month going out to eat. Nope. Money won't stop this from happening. After all, The West isn't on LOA 93 and can actually find two nickels to rub together.

 

[BeCareful!]

You bet. Read into it whatever you want. You're asking the courts to buy off on the new reality that during the process of binding arbitration, if the majority party is dissatisfied, then they have the right to not only ignore it's outcome, but to then use that majority to completely destroy the minority thus providing the majority benefits they would have never been able to obtain otherwise.

You think that's going to be the precedent moving fwd? The Effed up thing is...you do. This will go back to the court system at some point. If the Company want's instant access to the receiving end of litigation, they'll accept your DOH dream list. I think they're a hell of a lot smarter than their average East pilot employee to do that.

USAPA has been unable to prove....even slightly....that what they're attempting to do is legal. Nothing from the 9th indicates anything about the merits of the case only a clear warning that "under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit" USAPA must represent the West fairly.

Not USAPAs definition of "fair"...a neutral arbitrator. Money hasn't slowed the West pilots down one iota. Do you really think the West pilots are unwilling to spend another $1000.00 dollars each just to lay down and let you Cowardly Scabs slit their throats? I spend that in a month going out to eat. Nope. Money won't stop this from happening. After all, The West isn't on LOA 93 and can actually find two nickels to rub together.

Bucket,

Let's see.... "completely destroy the minority"??? OH! The drama of the westicle! Like being kicked in the westicles! Oh my goodness! What about DOH is even close to "completely destroyed?!?!?!?!?" EFF U!!!!!!

Now let's look at: "If the Company want's instant access to the receiving end of litigation, they'll accept your DOH dream list." Oh god....that's hilarious!!!! Yeah, I'm sure USAirways is running scared thinking about you and your super sharp lawyers taking them to judge wakeboard. Ya know, I'm not so sure....I liked you better when it seemed like you might not just be grasping at straws.

Now: "USAPA has been unable to prove....even slightly....that what they're attempting to do is legal." OMG....wait.....lemme catch my breath. THAT's really a stretch! USAPA is in compliance with a plethora of federal laws....all of them.....and was just vindicated of wrongdoing. Wake's courtroom was tainted. You will come to accept this in time. Your "victory" in his venue wasn't much to write home (to Bisbee) about.

And then the money thing.....like your mighty ALPA payscale is soooo much better than what ALPA negotiated for us. In the grand scheme, both of our contracts SUCK. If you had any experience at a real major airline you'd know this, but you're too proud to be working at Mesa Grande to see it.

U R A JOKE!!!!

 

[johnnyb]

Certainly you realize it is the company that furloughs pilots and not the union.
Fast

Spending 8 months on the Merger Comm back in the 90's is hardly a gravy train but I can see we'll just have a difference of opinion.

Yes I do - but I think you'll find many (concessionary) instances of min fleet deletion, pay cap increases, relaxed scope etc that have been negotiated by unions that allow furloughs to then take place .

 

[Bringupthebird]

Gee BeCareless, I'd respond to you, but when anyone confronts your entitlement with the truth, you have a cyber stroke. Ease up, you're not being denied the opportunity to help USAPA in their next screwup.

Save up. Damages aren't going away, they are accruing!

And what AOL has spent on lawyers is a pittance compared to what Seham has fleeced you guys for. Maybe USAPA should look into a good BK lawyer.