USAir ousts ALPA

[USCtrojan]

With merger mania going on, I wonder how many airlines ALPA can lose?



US Airways pilots oust union over seniority issues

April 17
All Associated Press news
PHOENIX (AP) - Frustrated by an internal dispute over seniority, US Airways pilots on Thursday ousted their union of 59 years and agreed to be represented by another group.
The rare decertification election, supervised by the federal National Mediation Board, gave the fledgling US Airline Pilots Association the right to represent the 5,300 pilots in US Airways' system.
The group was created and supported mostly by pilots from the former, Virginia-based US Airways who clashed with other pilots after their carrier was acquired by America West in 2005.
Their struggles have become a cautionary tale as a new wave of combination talks sweep through the industry.
Though the Tempe, Ariz.-based carrier's profit surged in the first year after the combination, problems among its pilots have continued to fester.
Pilots have said that disagreements over seniority have led to shouting matches in airport terminals. Supporters of rival pilot unions, the Air Line Pilots Association and the US Airline Pilots Association, have sent each other threatening e-mails, engaged in at least one shoving match and called each other to the parking lot to settle their arguments.
Seniority is extremely important for pilots. Their place in the company pecking order decides what planes they can fly, what routes they'll take, and when they can go on vacation.
Northwest Airlines Corp. and Delta Air Lines Inc. hoped their pilots would agree on seniority before announcing plans to join forces earlier this week. But Northwest pilots refused to go along and the companies moved ahead without a pilot agreement.
US Airways Group Inc. has agreed to contracts with all of its employee groups except pilots, flight attendants and baggage and ramp employees. The baggage and ramp employee union signed off on a tentative agreement last week.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

So, does this mean that a new contract is being worked on, or that both sides keep their contracts for a number of years???

cliff
YIP

 

[DoinTime]

1) The current arbitrated seniority award will be set aside.

2) USAPA will staple the Westies to the bottom of the list.

3) The Westies will revolt and refuse to pay dues.

4) USAPA wont have enough dues income to afford a comprehensive negotiation process with Airways and the end result will be a crap contract.

 

[USCtrojan]

Hi!

So, does this mean that a new contract is being worked on, or that both sides keep their contracts for a number of years???

cliff
YIP

Good question. This is relatively new territory as this type of thing doesn't happen that often.

Trojan

 

[topdawg]

ALPA is a TOTAL waste of money. They dont sht! Ask any ALoha or ATA pilot.

 

[Doug Parker]

1) The current arbitrated seniority award will be set aside.

2) USAPA will staple the Westies to the bottom of the list.

3) The Westies will revolt and refuse to pay dues.

4) USAPA wont have enough dues income to afford a comprehensive negotiation process with Airways and the end result will be a crap contract.

1 - WRONG

2 - WRONG

3 - RIGHT

4 - RIGHT


Get your facts straight d!klikker!



.

 

[777_Jackpot]

ALPA is a TOTAL waste of money...quote]

I second that

 

[WalterSobchak]

Pilots have said that disagreements over seniority have led to shouting matches in airport terminals. Supporters of rival pilot unions, the Air Line Pilots Association and the US Airline Pilots Association, have sent each other threatening e-mails, engaged in at least one shoving match and called each other to the parking lot to settle their arguments.

My point from another thread proven...just like a bunch of 15 year old gangbanger wannabes.

If you want to bitch about other carriers declining membership in your union...then call those people "unprofessional" and "detrimental to the profession"...you might want to get your current membership in check first. Perhaps pulling out your Merriam-Webster and looking up the definition of "professional", then having Captain Prater send that out to each individual dues-paying ALPA member would be a good place to start...or, maybe I missed the post where Rez came along to tell us that shoving matches are OK as long as you're fighting for "the profession".

I personally think that this is the kind of crap that the non-union pilots see and are less than thrilled with the idea of joining. It's as if one has to ask himself..."Who will hurt my QOL more?...my management or having ALPA on the property?" ALPA's track record of late is one of division...which is the last thing any of us (because what you guys do affects all of us) need during this time of uncertainty.

 

[USCtrojan]

My point from another thread proven...just like a bunch of 15 year old gangbanger wannabes.

If you want to bitch about other carriers declining membership in your union...then call those people "unprofessional" and "detrimental to the profession"...you might want to get your current membership in check first. Perhaps pulling out your Merriam-Webster and looking up the definition of "professional", then having Captain Prater send that out to each individual dues-paying ALPA member would be a good place to start...or, maybe I missed the post where Rez came along to tell us that shoving matches are OK as long as you're fighting for "the profession".

I personally think that this is the kind of crap that the non-union pilots see and are less than thrilled with the idea of joining. It's as if one has to ask himself..."Who will hurt my QOL more?...my management or having ALPA on the property?" ALPA's track record of late is one of division...which is the last thing any of us (because what you guys do affects all of us) need during this time of uncertainty.

Walter,

Just a thought here. By no means condoning shouting matches in public. However, Unions are made up of individuals. You can't control 100% of the people 100% of the time. Especially when tempers flare so high regarding your personal profession. Example....I'm certain that if ASA and SkyWest are merged at some point, you're gonna have tempers flare publicly between people (I'm NOT saying this is gonna happen, just using it AS AN EXAMPLE.) People will comment (or shout) irregardless of professionalism. That's just people and human nature. I wouldn't label that "Union Nazi's." You have to admit, the state of the industry and all that is going on is enough that some are under incredible stress. The situation absolutely sucks, and people deal with it differently.

Trojan

 

[Nevets]

My point from another thread proven...just like a bunch of 15 year old gangbanger wannabes.

If you want to bitch about other carriers declining membership in your union...then call those people "unprofessional" and "detrimental to the profession"...you might want to get your current membership in check first. Perhaps pulling out your Merriam-Webster and looking up the definition of "professional", then having Captain Prater send that out to each individual dues-paying ALPA member would be a good place to start...or, maybe I missed the post where Rez came along to tell us that shoving matches are OK as long as you're fighting for "the profession".

I personally think that this is the kind of crap that the non-union pilots see and are less than thrilled with the idea of joining. It's as if one has to ask himself..."Who will hurt my QOL more?...my management or having ALPA on the property?" ALPA's track record of late is one of division...which is the last thing any of us (because what you guys do affects all of us) need during this time of uncertainty.

There is always the 1-3% of pilots in each airline. That goes for non-union airlines as well.

If we do affect everyone, they should join to try to make things better rather than sitting on the sidelines hoping we do the right thing and then benefit from it if we do.

 

[WalterSobchak]

People will comment (or shout) irregardless of professionalism. That's just people and human nature. I wouldn't label that "Union Nazi's." You have to admit, the state of the industry and all that is going on is enough that some are under incredible stress. The situation absolutely sucks, and people deal with it differently.

No doubt, compadre. This does suck. Tempers will flare, for sure...and, sadly, this probably won't be the last time as we continue through this mess.

I'm just pointing out that so many of the hardcore ALPA here guys point out the "lack of professionalism" of those who choose to not be members of their union...yet, a true professional is one that keeps his cool under any stressful situation thrown at them. And, in the eyes of the general public and other workgroups, these guys make union pilots look like a bunch of crybabies. Listen, I know better than that...but so many do not.

Don't get me wrong, I'll admit the US guys were likely better off with ALPA. A bunch of guys are getting screwed, but everything they negotiated was within the ALPA merger guidelines. That may be a bitter pill to swallow, however, they knew that was what they were facing in the event of a merger....and they should have been more "professional" in dealing with it.

If we do affect everyone, they should join to try to make things better rather than sitting on the sidelines hoping we do the right thing and then benefit from it if we do.

I'm talking about the frontline people, the flight attendants, and other personnel that the vast majority of pilots appear to never give two craps about that have so much to lose (and have lost so much in the past) from a bunch of pilots quarreling like children. Not pilots of other airlines.

 

[Bdfg1]

Here are some good examples of ALPA professionalism:

"My sympathies to the AWA pilots. Burn the place to the ground. F--- uSAPa, and f--- anyone who voted for them." -PCL 128

"All the best to the AWA pilots. The AAA pilots can burn in hell." -PCL 128

ALPA's biggest cheerlearder.

 

[brokedash]

I feel for the West guys, remember it was their airline that bought Airways and kept those sorry Easties employed. I gues the Easties have a big case of forgetting history and being arrogant.

Best of luck to the West guys, your the ones whose seniority should be protected!

When does the walk out happen?

 

[Airline Driver]

I feel for the West guys, remember it was their airline that bought Airways and kept those sorry Easties employed. I gues the Easties have a big case of forgetting history and being arrogant.

Best of luck to the West guys, your the ones whose seniority should be protected!

When does the walk out happen?

You have your facts a little backwards. It was a Merger. Outside investors put up the Dough and Merged BOTH airlines together. AW may have been a little more stable financially but not by far. If they did not merge with Usair Both Pilot groups would be walking the street!! That is a Fact!! You Speak of Arrogance yet the your the pot calling the kettle black.

Look at what Color the planes are painted and then tell me who bought who!! Globally Who hell has heard of America West. USair carey's a global name and that is why it is still being used. ALPA is too Fat and needed a wake up call and boy they sure got it!! I feel sorry for both pilot groups because I have friends on both sides. I just hope they can come to the table and work out their problems.

It's a long road ahead!!!

 

[USCtrojan]

Tempers are a flarin'

Good point Walter, I understand and agree with most of what you posted. But look at said thread--(hey, it rhymed!) Tempers are flaring. This situation the Airline Industry is in as a whole will never be forgotten. As Delta/Pan Am, American/TWA, and now USAir/America West. This will live on forever, and people are pissed--rightfully so. I have no idea what the answer is and don't proclaim to. All I can say is good luck to everyone and I sincerely hope it works out in everyone's favor.

Trojan

 

[sqwkvfr]

What was that line from Star Wars?

"So, this is how liberty dies; with thunderous applause."

 

[WalterSobchak]

Good point Walter, I understand and agree with most of what you posted.

This just in...a cold front has blown through the 7th level of Hell. Overnight temperatures forecast to be below 32F. Has Uncle Rico has been serving up Kool-Aid and Green Jell-O in the ATL crewroom? :-D

Like I always say, I'm not against the right of each indivdual pilot group having the right to organize...but, when they do, I don't think it is too much to expect them to act in the professional manner they boast about.

All I can say is good luck to everyone and I sincerely hope it works out in everyone's favor.

Indeed, my friend. In all seriousness, I think that's all any of us can hope for at this point. Either that, or for the oil fairy to determine that we've all suffered enough and let things get a little less outta hand.

 

[Caspian27]

You have your facts a little backwards. It was a Merger. Outside investors put up the Dough and Merged BOTH airlines together. AW may have been a little more stable financially but not by far. If they did not merge with Usair Both Pilot groups would be walking the street!! That is a Fact!! You Speak of Arrogance yet the your the pot calling the kettle black.

Look at what Color the planes are painted and then tell me who bought who!! Globally Who hell has heard of America West. USair carey's a global name and that is why it is still being used. ALPA is too Fat and needed a wake up call and boy they sure got it!! I feel sorry for both pilot groups because I have friends on both sides. I just hope they can come to the table and work out their problems.

It's a long road ahead!!!

It's easy to call something a fact that is absolutely impossible to prove. You can't prove that the HP pilot group would be walking the street with any certainty. They weren't even in bankruptcy.

I agree with your assertion with the reason the US Airways name was kept; but saying that USAir bought HP because the planes are now painted US Airways is ludicrous. The labor groups will merge, but it was a purchase by HP, with outside financing. US did NOT purchase HP. That's why the office is now in Tempe, AZ.

 

[DoinTime]

1 - WRONG

2 - WRONG

3 - RIGHT

4 - RIGHT


Get your facts straight d!klikker!

If any of those are remotely close to coming true its the first two (especially the first). The whole point in jumping ship on ALPA was to get relief on the seniority award. Without ALPA on the property that award means nothing. Does the mantra "seniority matters" ring a bell?

This sets a incredibly dangerous precedent.

 

[Carl S.]

U stock goes to zero, AWA stock goes to LCC stock, who brought who, follow the money!