USAIR "East" profiting while the West Flounders?

[TWA Dude]

That's right, rajiflyboy, the fact that AWA went through a chapter 11 in the early 90s means in 2005 AWA and US Airways were both in identical financial shape. You should buy and run an airline.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Well son.. looks like you haven't done your homework.


http://www.nytimes.com/1991/06/28/b...airlines-files-for-chapter-11-bankruptcy.html

Looks like you are the son.

Date of Birth May 21, 1980 (29)

 

[Flybywire44]

First of all, this post is meant to be neutral...

Are both groups under the same pay scale? US Air has the lowest operating costs out of any of the majors, which is the only reason its still in business. Even still the airline lost 30% of its net worth in 2008. More than any other major. The company is delighted with the East vs West inability to negotiate higher pay.

US Air management was flushed with cash when it tried to buy Delta and lost much of it on fuel hedges and investments in the stock market.

What percentage of the furloughs are coming out of the West side vs the East? For the time being... The West is more junior, no? With no merged seniority list the company has nothing concrete to furlough by except for straight date of hire, right? This was why EAST made USAPA; to buy themselves time to keep their seniority.

It seems the East would rather keep their seniority and lower pay scales, than work with the West and have higher ones in lesser seats. No? Maybe West should have shown more respect to the senior pilot group, given their numbers and tactics? They have the power now till they retire or will this latest lawsuit do anything for the Nic Award?

 

[rajflyboy]

First of all, this post is meant to be neutral...

Are both groups under the same pay scale? US Air has the lowest operating costs out of any of the majors, which is the only reason its still in business. Even still the airline lost 30% of its net worth in 2008. More than any other major. The company is delighted with the East vs West inability to negotiate higher pay.

US Air management was flushed with cash when it tried to buy Delta and lost much of it on fuel hedges and investments in the stock market.

What percentage of the furloughs are coming out of the West side vs the East? For the time being... The West is more junior, no? With no merged seniority list the company has nothing concrete to furlough by except for straight date of hire, right? This was why EAST made USAPA; to buy themselves time to keep their seniority.

It seems the East would rather keep their seniority and lower pay scales, than work with the West and have higher ones in lesser seats. No? Maybe West should have shown more respect to the senior pilot group, given their numbers and tactics? They have the power now till they retire or will this latest lawsuit do anything for the Nic Award?

A well thought out post. Thanks!

 

[rajflyboy]

Looks like you are the son.

Date of Birth May 21, 1980 (29)

You believe those dates?

Just like you believe that America West was never in bankrupcy??

 

[ultrarunner]

USAir and America West are not under the same pay/benifit/work rules. It is as it was before.

And what is interesting is everyone essentially concedes that USAir has the $hittiest of work-rules...but are avoiding sitting down to negotiate a single contract since they are not happy with the Nic award.

I know folks on both sides of the fence, and I have talked to both sides, and they would agree that integration via Nic and negotiating a single CBA would benefit the entire pilot group.

But U has an adgenda...and apparently they are willing to go to any length and at any cost in an efford to overturn Nic...and IMHO, it's just not going to happen...

But, let 'em have their day, and then move on....

 

[TWA Dude]

First of all, this post is meant to be neutral...

Right. Kind of like a captain who briefs his FO that he does everything by the book and is easy going.

US Air has the lowest operating costs out of any of the majors, which is the only reason its still in business.

Man, are you confused. US Airways has the highest operating costs in the industry, employee salaries notwithstanding. see: http://industry.bnet.com/travel/1000283/third-quarter-2008-airline-costs/

The West is more junior, no?

Longevity isn't the same as seniority. So no, the West isn't more junior.

This was why EAST made USAPA; to buy themselves time to keep their seniority.

And also why USAPA was found liable in a DFR trial. It's not legal.

It seems the East would rather keep their seniority and lower pay scales, than work with the West and have higher ones in lesser seats.

There's no "lesser" seats. Nicolau kept the relative seniority of both airlines pretty close. Since the merger the East has enjoyed hundred of upgrades. The West, only downgrades.

Maybe West should have shown more respect to the senior pilot group, given their numbers and tactics?

Respect must be earned.

They have the power now till they retire or will this latest lawsuit do anything for the Nic Award?

We'll see. Considering the Addington lawsuit's original aim was an injuction enjoining the Nicolau list if that's all Judge Wake awards than mission accomplished. But Wake has taken a month to research the issue deeper because USAPA has made it abundantly clear they every intention of continuing to violate its DFR. So look for Wake to try to put more teeth in his remedy so justice may be served.

 

[MCDU]

"...whah' thankya, thankya very much "



PHXFLYR

Baker you are a tool

M

 

[Boeing747Driver]

You believe those dates?

Just like you believe that America West was never in bankrupcy??

I never said AW was never in BK. Reading comprehension.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Baker you are a tool

M

How have you been MCDU?

 

[T2Bus]

Baker you are a tool

M

MCDU...must have a day off from Wendys. How's the fries cooking?

 

[Metrojet]

And just how would anyone verify this without having access to the company's books? It's not like the company is going to (or is required to) report on the profitability of individual routes. Please! The people "throwing this theory around" (yourself included) are simply inciting more stupid discussions that at the end of the day will mean nothing.

It is a known fact that the lowest yield is traffic to and from LAS - that is why the flight schedule was reduced so much - not stupid - good business use of the airplanes/crews. The stupid part is not going into new markets that might be profitable and instead we just furloughed.

Metrojet

 

[Flybywire44]

Right. Kind of like a captain who briefs his FO that he does everything by the book and is easy going.Man, are you confused. US Airways has the highest operating costs in the industry, employee salaries notwithstanding. see: http://industry.bnet.com/travel/1000283/third-quarter-2008-airline-costs/
Longevity isn't the same as seniority. So no, the West isn't more junior.And also why USAPA was found liable in a DFR trial. It's not legal.There's no "lesser" seats. Nicolau kept the relative seniority of both airlines pretty close. Since the merger the East has enjoyed hundred of upgrades. The West, only downgrades.Respect must be earned.We'll see. Considering the Addington lawsuit's original aim was an injuction enjoining the Nicolau list if that's all Judge Wake awards than mission accomplished. But Wake has taken a month to research the issue deeper because USAPA has made it abundantly clear they every intention of continuing to violate its DFR. So look for Wake to try to put more teeth in his remedy so justice may be served.

This best part of your post is how many times you copied, pasted and quoted.... so chill. You're right, I made a mistake. I meant to say that US Air has the lowest operating costs with respect to employee pay scales. West and East are together financing managements blunders. The airline would not survive anyother way. US Air is in very bad shape.

Respect was earned by the East pilots with their extra decade of service over the West. What is the average age of the West pilot group? The average age of an East pilot is 56! Shame on you for saying that they need to earn anything when so many of them are old anough to be the fathers of many AWA pilots.

The post was neutral: I have two family members at US Air who are super senior. Nic or not they are two pilots who don't get affected, if anything Nic gives them more relativity. So yes my post was neutral.

Ironicly, I will again point out that West asked for too much, and in turn (through a twist of fate) got too little.

You're right, don't worry... the Nic award will go through... at some point. But if you can stand by for a couple more years, East will retire in droves and you will ride an amazing wave of retirments. Many East pilots are losing their medicals because they're so old. My father is actually one of them.

ALPA will come back and the Nic award will eventually make it on the property. That is if US Air survives the likes of super senior East Captains and more senior East FOs writing up and bickering with junior West pilots bitter about their lives. US Airways as a whole is not far from a serious breaking point...

You should be more worried about how subversive USAPA (or ALPA) will be for the next couple decades. That is if US Air survives. Best of luck to all the US Air guys.

 

[sktwstdfrk]

Two words: Wholly Owned. We are just an expense on the financial report, while West has Mesa, a contract expense.

 

[TWA Dude]

This best part of your post is how many times you copied, pasted and quoted.

I don't copy or paste anything. I simply hit reply with quote and insert my comments after yours.

Respect was earned by the East pilots with their extra decade of service over the West.

Simply working at a company for a long time doesn't earn respect. It earns longevity pay. You need to learn the difference.

What is the average age of the West pilot group?

Don't know. Don't care. George Nicolau is in his eighties and that earned him the epithet "senile" from many Easties. Doesn't seem to me there's much respect for age on the East.

Shame on you for saying that they need to earn anything when so many of them are old anough to be the fathers of many AWA pilots.

When they act like children (you know, the whole binding arbitration thing) is brings shame on them. Don't blame that on the West.

The post was neutral:

Maybe in your mind it was. To everyone else you were more critical of the West.

Ironicly, I will again point out that West asked for too much, and in turn (through a twist of fate) got too little.

Okay, I'll bite. We asked for too much when and from whom?

But if you can stand by for a couple more years, East will retire in droves and you will ride an amazing wave of retirments.

Promise? Ya know, when I was hired by TWA in 1999 we were told we'd be captains in five years. I wasn't gullible then and I'm not gullible now. There's no guarantees about where this company will be in several years so you'll excuse me if the promise of future advancement falls flat. And BTW, arbitrator Nicolau didn't put much stock in future advancement. He's been around longer than you or I for sure.

ALPA will come back and the Nic award will eventually make it on the property.

Shhh.... there are Easties lurking on this site. You'll give them a heart attack.

US Airways as a whole is not far from a serious breaking point...

We've heard that before. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Baker you are a tool

M

OK,Martin. I'll play along. Who's "Baker? "

PHXFLYR

 

[Carl S.]

Pssst! Nic is already here, just waiting to be implemented! The East pilots can look for respect all they want, but with moves like USAPA and the Cactus 18 lawsuit, it will be hard to earn.

 

[Flybywire44]

I don't copy or paste anything. I simply hit reply with quote and insert my comments after yours.Simply working at a company for a long time doesn't earn respect. It earns longevity pay. You need to learn the difference.Don't know. Don't care. George Nicolau is in his eighties and that earned him the epithet "senile" from many Easties. Doesn't seem to me there's much respect for age on the East.When they act like children (you know, the whole binding arbitration thing) is brings shame on them. Don't blame that on the West.Maybe in your mind it was. To everyone else you were more critical of the West.Okay, I'll bite. We asked for too much when and from whom?Promise? Ya know, when I was hired by TWA in 1999 we were told we'd be captains in five years. I wasn't gullible then and I'm not gullible now. There's no guarantees about where this company will be in several years so you'll excuse me if the promise of future advancement falls flat. And BTW, arbitrator Nicolau didn't put much stock in future advancement. He's been around longer than you or I for sure.Shhh.... there are Easties lurking on this site. You'll give them a heart attack.We've heard that before. I'll believe it when I see it.

So if you were hired by TWA in 99, you must be loving life at AWA now. I cannot believe that you have (at most) 7 years seniority at AWA and you think you're on par with any East pilot due to your relative longevity.

Delta vs Mesa has been drug out for how long? There is no reason why this lawsuit won't last another year.

Hard to reason with the unreasonable.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Blah Blah Blah.

 

[Prog 2/2]

Hard to reason with the unreasonable.

No kidding.

Sometimes you even have to involve disinterested third parties to make any progress......you know, like arbitration panels and federal judges.