USAF Post-pilot training, training

[Vinman]

I'm in Phase III right now at Vance AFB in the T-1, but am looking for more information about how long training is for the MWS that I'll get placed in post-Winging. I'm hoping for C-17 or a -135 platform. Any numbers out there?

 

[Huggyu2]

Until someone else with more knowledge than I have can answer, I'll estimate it to be about 5 months for both courses.

 

[Mooseflyer]

C-17 initial copilot school is about 3 months, give or take. They're in the process of adding NVG training to inital qual at the schoolhouse instead of at the gaining unit, so this may add a week or so once it gets going.

Best of luck,

 

[RJP]

Wow, it's been a while since I was at UPT but I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Phase III? MWS? What are these things? What happened to flying a tweet, a -38 and graduating?

This SUPT world is just too confusing. Please explain.

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here is the basic path:

1) Have PPL or get it through IFT program.

2) Go to UPT and fly either T-6s or T-37s, depending on the base you are assigned. JSUPT pilots fly T-34s in Florda with the Navy as well.

3) Track either fighter/bomber and fly the T-38 or track airlift and fly either the T-1 or T-44 (again, training base specific).

4) Graduate (yay!) and attend platform specific training, i.e. A-10, F-16 or -135 series school.

5) Move to operational unit and participate in training/recurrency there.

Simple, right?

 

[RJP]

Simple enough, I guess.

Here's how it used to work.

1) PPL or not, go to Hondo, TX (famous mosly for: http://www.texasescapes.com/DEPARTMENTS/Stopito/Hondo/hondo.htm ), fly the T-3 (which no longer exists), do aerobatics and solo once.

2) UPT. Tweet, followed by the WHITE rocket. SUPT was just starting but not at SPS.

3) IFF. Intro to Fighter Fundamentals. AT-38B @ Sheppard, Randolph or Columbus.

4) RTU. (Reserve Training Unit?) A-10, F-16, KC-135 training.

5) Ops.

Love the kitten avatar....what's that from?

 

[Vinman]

Thanks guys so far.

The way Flyingtoohigh had it;
1) Correct. I had prior flight time (skipped IFT).

2) I went through JSUPT with the Navy in FL.

3) Track selected T-1's and PCS'd to Vance.

4) Will come far too/not soon enough.

This is where I am looking for the additional info. Mooseflyer had it. I am just looking for how long some of the aircraft specific training is and also how it is accomplished.

More specifically;
1. What are average training times for different airframes? (I thought the term was MWS [major weapons system] unless that is reserved for aircraft with actual weapons other than the M9 I would carry.)

2. Do they train in different locations or do you go to one of just a couple places and attend "ground school" for whatever your aircraft is and then go to your unit to actually get in one and fly it? Flyingtoohigh mentioned something about this last part in his response.

3. If #2 is pretty short, will I be TDY'd for it (ie...how far away/short would it have to be to be TDY'd or PCS'd)?

4. How long is the Squadron training?

5. How long until one is actually flying real world "missions".

Thanks guys.

 

[talondriver]

4) Graduate (yay!) and attend platform specific training, i.e. A-10, F-16 or -135 series school.
Simple, right?

Close. We forgot to factor in survival training (both land and water) which could take up to three weeks.

Bomber pilots will go directly to Dyess (Bones) or Barksdale (BUFFs) for their MWS training while fighter pilots still have to go through Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals (IFF) for approx. six weeks, then on to their respective RTUs. IFF is currently done at Sheppard and Moody. No more IFF at Randolph.

The trend nowadays is a couple months wait before continuing on to IFF or bomber RTU due to manning issues.

If everything goes as planned and your gaining combat squadron's AEF rotation hits when you're MQT complete, you could be wearing your tan flightsuit and flying real world missions in seven to nine months as a bomber pilot and around ten months to a year as a fighter dude/dudette (longer if you're an F-16 pilot) after SUPT graduation.

Hope this helps.

 

[AlbieF15]

Unfortunately for a few, phase 4 is wash out of fighter RTU because you cannot fly contact/instruments!

I expect problems with BFM, ACM, etc... Its tough and its new to the students. However, a short review of FEBs will show instruments and transition eliminate more students than the tactical phases of training.

Students--work hard and know the basic instrument procedures when you show up at Tyndall, Luke, Seymour or DM... That means holding entries, IFR enroute ops, and flying approaches. The T-38 is different than your follow on but the basics still apply (even in the 727 I sometimes fly now!)

UPT/IFF IPs....reinforce that stuff too. "Kicking the can" and just pushing the students down here mean we get some extra manpower for 3-8 months while these kids wait on another assignment (or worse), but if they are weak on the basics either fix them there or send them if at all possible to another track.

I seem to remember a LOT of instrument training in T-38s, including flying "bagged" in the RCP and solo cross countries. Is that stuff still there?

 

[TonyC]

Interesting that you'd bring that up, Albie. I recall having a session or two as a Tweet Flight Commander with young bucks that didn't seem to be too motivated to excel in the instrument sorties. They were guns a'blazin' on the acro and the fingertip, but seemed too busy to bother with Tune-Identify-Monitor, etc., etc. I reminded them that the wings they were working for are Instrument Pilot wings, and those procedures will be invaluable in ANY airplane that they move on to. In only a few cases (the future Tweet FAIPs) would anybody care a year from then how well they could do a cloverleaf or crossunder in a Tweet.


It's easy to lose that perspective, and it's healthy to drop reminders like you just did. I still use some of those same instrument skills to this day. I recall one particularly gratifying moment when I saw some live-feed raw TV footage after the first night of Desert Storm. The CNN reporter was interviewing a small group of fighter pilots that were desribing their mission, and among the group was one of my students - - a recipient of my "Instrument procedures are important" pep talk - - describing his ingress through the weather! Being a Tweet IP was not terribly rewarding, but it did have its moments, even after I had gotten back to the RC.

 

[GasPasser]

stand by, message follows.....

Sorry a little SAC'ism there. I'll have to check for you on the KC-135 school. It's been a long time since I went through CCTS (KC-135 schoolhouse at Castle AFB in the good 'ole SAC days). I know that it's at Altus AFB now since we were 'assimilated' under MAC years ago, (now AMC). Castle was about 3.5 months, but I think it is shorter at Altus. I'm still flying with the reserves and we have some new co's that went through Altus recently, so I can find out for you. I did just read in our FCF that AMC will now train stu's to fly both seats. It won't change a thing in our reserve unit, and most others I suspect......UPT grads can expect to spend a few years flying only in the right seat.

I'm surprised there is not good gouge at UPT on all the choices for follow on assignments. Good luck to you on drop night! ....do they still call it that?

 

[Vinman]

Yeah, it's still drop night. I'm in the early (read as academics) stages of the T-1. I haven't gotten over to the Squadron to start asking around for follow on stuff and I trained primary at Whiting NAS in FL.

So basically about 3-4 months doing academics somewhere, then off to my gaining unit to finish up? Is this right?

 

[talondriver]

UPT/IFF IPs....reinforce that stuff too. "Kicking the can" and just pushing the students down here mean we get some extra manpower for 3-8 months while these kids wait on another assignment (or worse), but if they are weak on the basics either fix them there or send them if at all possible to another track.

I seem to remember a LOT of instrument training in T-38s, including flying "bagged" in the RCP and solo cross countries. Is that stuff still there?

Albie-

I hear ya. We just started getting feedback about poor instrument skills at IFF. That kind of blew us away initially. Then we realized that these guys are showing up at IFF three to four months after graduation. When they're flying their dedicated "GAP" rides, they're usually formation sorties. We need to put them under the bag somewhere close to them leaving for IFF.

There are no solo cross countries. Our cross country plan is usually instrument/nav or form nav. Back in the day, the last checkride was the nav out and back. Now, it's the second to the last; the last being low level. I'm sure that's not helping with their instrument crosscheck.

 

[Big Duke Six]

RJP buddy, Hondo was where the T-41's parked. The futuristic T-3 was just a gleam in somebodies' eye....


I used to love watching that cropduster go in and out of there with his Frankenstein airplane. Who knows how many times he had bit it in that thing. I still remember the smell of the chemicals.

Dang that was fun though.

 

[flogged]

Duke,

You are correct, Hondo IS where the T-41s were parked UNTIL the T-3s arrived in '94 or '95. I went through in early '96 and was in the last class to get both a pattern solo as well as area solo in the T-3 (solos were cnxd soon thereafter when the AFA had their second class A w/their T-3s). As I understand it, the T-3s sat under the hail shelters there for years as the AF decided their fate.

Does anyone know what happened to the fleet (sold to Indian AF or something)?

Flgd

 

[flogged]

Back to Vinman's question...

6-9 months is probably a realistic average from graduation to mission ready (for a heavy guy, can't speak to a fighter timeline). Training pipelines can get clogged for a number of reasons, but normally the process is fairly straight forward (though I have heard Little Rock C-130 school can take a while). After completing the Intl qual schoolhouse (qualified in the airplane) and survival and getting settled in at your new unit/home, you'll still have several air and ground training events/requirements before you are 'mission ready' (aka worldwide deployable).

For me, and I was typical:

Grad UPT - Sept
Start Altus 135 tng - Nov
Grad Altus tng - Feb
Reported to unit/inprocessed - Feb
TDY to Survival School - Mar
Back to unit for addl mission qual tng - April-May
First 60 day OSW deployment - Jun

Once you get to the line in T-1s you'll have a whole flight of IPs that can answer all your questions and get you up to speed on how the AF does things. But my bottom line advice -- focus on tomorrow and next week and enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[414Flyer]

As far as I know, the T-3s are still there.

The ex-WW2 hangar towards the south end of the field burned down in 2001, along with about 15 planes

Tornado destroyed the really big one just to the north of that one two months later, along with whatever planes survived that first fire and were parked outside.

 

[Vinman]

Flogged, thanks a bunch. Great information. I'm not trying to get too caught up in the "day after tomorrow," but still have to get an idea and plan ahead so I don't get caught with my pants down. That, and my wife has been bugging me about it. That information is what I had kind of heard, but had also heard other stuff so needed a little more confirmation. Thanks again.

 

[keydet96]

KC-135 CIQ (Co-pilot Initial Qual) is about 3 Months. 2 Months of Academics and Sims with Flight Safety and 4-5 weeks on the flightline depending on WX/Scheduling.
RCs and AWACS/JSTARS train at their ops bases, so I don't know their specifics.
The T-1 guys at Vance will give you a good briefing on all of the MWS training and specifics when you're getting close to assignment night.
For now, have fun in the T-1. It's a great airplane.

 

[BroyF15]

Albie-

I hear ya. We just started getting feedback about poor instrument skills at IFF. That kind of blew us away initially. Then we realized that these guys are showing up at IFF three to four months after graduation. When they're flying their dedicated "GAP" rides, they're usually formation sorties. We need to put them under the bag somewhere close to them leaving for IFF.

Albie & Talondrivier - you're both spot on. I've been flying IFF missions for the last 7 years straight. The on-going complaint during that time from the RTU's has always been instruments. We don't get nearly as concerned about BFM or bombing skills since the mighty Talon will never fly like a 4th gen fighter. But, instruments is instruments is instruments. We spend far more time on that area now then ever (both in the air and in the sim). The current feedback from Tyndall is to make the last sortie an instrument ride.

For all you guys that are not as gray/bald/wrinkled/experienced I think you get the drift. Even as fun and as glorious as flying a figther can be, you're not much of a hero if you crash on ILS final (been to enough funerals).