Datafox,
I did not even go the the original link in the opening post, but just wanted to say that what you have written in this post is much closer to the truth than you may realize.
datafox said:
Just thought it was an interesting movie and I appreciate the opinions of those on this board.
What did I get out of it? I guess three things:
1) It seems as though Iraq/Saddam have more or less been our bia-tch for the last 40 years. I assume there are many other covert operations going on in second, third world countries that we don't hear about because they aren't as crucial to our international relations and wealth as Iraq is.
If it were only Iraq perhaps it would not be so bad. As you point out, there are indeed many more "operations" covert or otherwise that the general population hears or knows little about.
Some examples:
We lied to our people and the world about the "sinking of the Maine" to rally popular support for our expansionist war against Spain. We also told our people that we were doing it to "liberate Cubans" from the Spanish yoke. Then we installed an American yoke and kept it in place for almost half a century.
We fabricated and funded a revolution in Columbia, that resulted in removing part of its terrirory and creating what is now known as Panama. Then we signed a "treaty" with a Frenchman, so that we could build the Panama Canal in the new "Zone".
Many years later, we invaded Panama, captured its President, and have him locked up in a Miami jail. We said it was because he was a "drug dealer". We did not bother to tell the American public who in our own government he was "dealing" with. It is said "on the street" that one possible descendent of that cartel connection family now occupies the White House and another the Govenors Mansion in Florida.
The CIA engineered a plot that directly resulted in the assasination of the only democratically elected President of Chile, and the subquesent installation of our puppet, the notorious dictator/murderer named Pinochet. When he would no longer do our bidding, we called him a terrorist and condemed him. He was indeed a terrorist; one that we intentionally created.
In yet another CIA adventure/plot, we overturned a free election in Guyana, SA, and installed another "leader" that we thought would be our puppet too. Turned out he was a bigger communist than the one we overthrew.
We invaded the island country of Grenada, and overthrew its government, on the pretext that the construction of an airport (which they asked us to build and we refused) was a threat to the national security of the United States and we had to "rescue" a bunch of flunkies from the US that called themselves "medical students". Courtesy of Ronald Reagan who needed to boost his image.
What we did in Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic are also good examples of duplicity and treachery by our government.
And that is only the tip of the huge iceberg.
2) History is a lot different than what I learned in high school.
Very true. It is also a lot different that what we "learn" in college. Unless one chooses to study the "history" of any event or period from many unrelated perspectives and sources, it is mostly a "story" altered to support the indoctrination of the masses desired by the particular government. [If you read an Iraqi history book, do you think it would call Saddam an evil man?] There are almost always as many lies as there are truths in what we call "history books". They get the dates right, but the "whys" of events are mostly spin and lies.
3) I also found it interesting that Iraq was removed as a terrorist country when it did what our (the U.S.) government wanted, even though Saddam was still killing plenty of Iranians and his own people.
Unfortunately, Iraq is only one of a great many small countries that have shared this distinction. The closer to reality that you come, the more you discover that the international behavior of our beloved country's government, is little different from that of the former imperial powers of Europe. The Portugese, the Dutch, the English, the French, the Germans, the Russians and yes, the Americans, have all become wealthy and powerful as a direct result of the "rape" of other peoples and nations.
As Sir Winston Churchill once said, "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."
It is no different today, we just happen to be the No. 1 powerhouse of our time and thus we are the authors of our own history books. Ultimately, the true history will be revealed.
An oversimplification, but it seems:
TERROR COUNTRY = one that doesn't support the U.S. gov't
NON-TERROR COUNTRY = One that supports the U.S. gov't, even though they could very well be involved in terrorism (i.e. Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, etc.).
Yes, it is an oversimplification as you say. It is also fairly accurate.
I'm finding that regardless of political belief (democrat, republician, libertarian, indepedent) our government is almost entirely corrupt.
And so it is with the government's of most nations throught the recorded history of mankind. Regrettably, we are not yet different.
I think Bush obviously lies through his teeth to scare the public into getting public support for things they would normally be critical of. Kerry? Another liar. He is not the working class hero he portrays...he has his hands in more international banks and corporations than one can count.
It should be noted that both of these men are politicians and both are seeking the very same thing, i.e., power. They will do virtually anything to keep or to take that power.
"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
I'm not certain about the alternatives, but I think democracy (or our republic, whatever you want to call it) is more corrupt than I could have ever imagined...many of you probably knew that, but it is new to me.
If it is any consolation to you, our government is not different from any other, when it comes to corruption and lies. It has simply been more successful in getting the population to embrace the myth of its decency. As a nation, we excell in "marketing".
Our people are perhaps the most decent of the current age, but that decency dies quickly once they rise to positions of political or economic power. This is not really an American failing, it is human nature. The masses have always followed their "Kings" and the Kings have always been corrupt. We Americans have been living in a dream world of mythology with respect to the "innocence" of our government. It is not innocent and it has never been.
Is our "system" better than others? Yes it is. That must be taken in the context that it is better for us. That does not mean that it is inherently good or that it is better for anyone else. It is better for us, and us alone.
Taking a stance of non-involvement,
Datafox
If you are true to yourself you really can't be uninvolved. It will never get better if you take that stance.
You will be called a "hate-America-first" dirty left-wing liberal for what you have said, and I will be crucified for this reply to you. I will be told that I am un-American and my patriotism will be challenged. I expect that and I am unconcerned. My "patriotism" has stood the test of time and will continue to do so. I do not have to support the Republican right-wing or the Democrat lef-wing to be a good true American. In fact the opposite is true.
Perhaps my voice is "crying in the wilderness" and the sound of one falling tree may not be heard. But, there is always hope that someone is listening and I may be heard. I know that I am not really alone and I know too that if I do not shout I guarantee than no one will ever hear. We can do better as a people, much better, and we have to try, individually and collectively.
Way back when a handful of men challenged the British Empire and succeeded in establishing this "experiment" in a new form of government, they too were called many things by those that opposed their ideas. They pledged their lives and their sacred honor. Today (and yesterday) we called the leaders Patriots and their supporters Minutemen. The British called them traitors and terrorists. We should remember that when we think of others.
We are a very young nation and we have been successful beyond the wildest dreams of our forefathers. Along the way we have not been perfect, and on far too many occasions we have as a nation reverted to the abuses of power against others, that our forefathers fought to remove and eliminate. We have strayed and we have "sinned".
Be that as it may, the dream has not been lost. If we make the necessary corrections when we come to recognize the deviations created by our leaders and money moguls, we will eventually realize the dreams of our forefathers. The dream still has the possibility of becoming reality, the "experiment" a real success.
We cannot do this if we do not remain involved. Our stance must not be one of withdrawal in the face of disillusion, danger and name calling. We must instead become more involved and participate fully and actively. If we fail to do this, we will eventually lose the dream.
A philosophy of "America right or wrong" or "love it or leave it" is one of ignorance and error. Yes we must love it and that love must motivate us to ensure that is it right, not accept that it is ok to be wrong. That is our responsibility as a people.
I wish you well.
