US considers raising foreign ownership limits

[FlyBoeingJets]

Further, I should mention, that not to long ago, UPS and FedEx were foaming at the mouth, upset about the DHL-Deutsche Post debacle, yet now UPS/IPA are willing to consider open skies and foreign ownership . Perhaps, just perhaps, the UPS IPA pilots should start thinking, that with the new contract, which they certainly deserve, are going to very highly compensated, more so than probably all foreign freight carriers. Sure, they have a contract that forbids outsourcing, yet the Menlo story continues to unfold. FedEx really is in the same boat.

So I guess, all of us, freight and passenger, are in this one together!

Dizel,

Been giving this one some thought. If cabotage were allowed, would it be cargo or pax? I think it will be cargo first. (In the U.S., its already a reality in Alaska) It is less politically risky. No one cares if there is a "danger" to their package by it being carried by Chinese pilots. Isn't UPS chartering at least a flight a week on a Chinese freighter to Kentucky? The menlo thing is also another nose under the tent.

There is also no worry about the U.S. cargo transportation system. We have enough carriers to do that without FedEx and UPS. The U.S. military contracts with Evergreen, Atlas, Polar, Gemini, World, etc. FedEx is only a small fraction of the lift. (<5%). I'm not counting the mail contract. UPS doesn't even play in military contracts, last I checked, because they are allergic to hazardous cargo.

The mail contract will help keep revenue up at FedEx or at UPS if it changes hands. As long as the revenue keeps coming there will be an uneasy truce between management and pilots at these two, IMHO. If one angers their pilots the other will clean up. And the showdown with DHL/Astar appears to be almost 5 years in the future, if it comes at all. Basically not even a consideration due to the distance. FedEx and UPS want open skies because hey would expand more in Europe than DHL would expand here, so the thinking goes. I wonder if they are selling us beachfront property with that claim. Open skies would give FedEx and UPS at least a chance to compete with DHL in Europe as DHL is starting to compete with us in the CONUS.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Seems like the word needs to get out big time. Start by talking to everybody in the "industry" that you can. Some may not even know it is up for debate again. Get them to do the same. Everybody calls their reps in DC to let them know they need to vote no. I've even asked family members to call/write reps.

As far as ALPA goes, it seems like they are pretty quiet on the issue this time around. Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but I would think they would be all over this.

ALPA has thier political action committee. It is not funded by ALPA dues. This is where the research and lobbying is done to push the issues of Air Line Pilots.

ALPA is well aware of the situation. However, are the pilots? It is hard to heard when most don't know or don't care. The AMR pilots have a political action committee too....

Percentage of participation and volume are two things.....

As an Air Line Pilot can you sacrifice a beer a month? Five bucks? Many Air Line Pilots give hundreds of dollars a year to political action committees. They understand that you take care of the people who take care of you....

There are plenty of myths and a total lack of understanding on giving money to political action committees.

Many think by supporting ALPA-PAC they are supporting non aviation issues..wrong.

The more support we give to help the DC players who are helping us the more effective they will be.

At a minimum, don't be ignorant on the issues. Get informed.


Here is an excellent article on the current martime industry and its anarchy state. It is written by the son of the author of Stick and Rudder. Read this article for a glimpse into the possiblilty of what is in store for us...

http://www.wesjones.com/anarchy.htm

 

[Clyde]

Clyde,

"I challenge you to name one politician from any political party who would be more influenced by yours and my needs over money."

We totally agree, so please, let's not turn this into a political discussion, although it certainly is politics at work.

Dizel8,

Agreed, let's steer it back away from politics. I was afraid it was on track for going deep in that direction too.

Also, I agree with you that pax and cargo pilots are all in this together too.

 

[Clyde]

Dizel,

Been giving this one some thought. If cabotage were allowed, would it be cargo or pax? I think it will be cargo first. (In the U.S., its already a reality in Alaska) It is less politically risky. No one cares if there is a "danger" to their package by it being carried by Chinese pilots. Isn't UPS chartering at least a flight a week on a Chinese freighter to Kentucky? The menlo thing is also another nose under the tent.

There is also no worry about the U.S. cargo transportation system. We have enough carriers to do that without FedEx and UPS. The U.S. military contracts with Evergreen, Atlas, Polar, Gemini, World, etc. FedEx is only a small fraction of the lift. (<5%). I'm not counting the mail contract. UPS doesn't even play in military contracts, last I checked, because they are allergic to hazardous cargo.

UPS is in the CRAF program, and is able to do militay charters when needed.

The cabotage with regards to cargo could be good or bad depending on how you look at it. A foreign airline who regularly flies cargo between Europe and the U.S. may be allowed to further continue to more airports from it's original destination. They wouldn't necessarily be taking over "hub-and spoke" routes, but nonetheless, they would be flying something that a U.S. carrier could potentially have flown.

On the flip side of the coin, there could be opportunities for U.S. airlines to fly more routes overseas. Currently, some of our flying isn't done by us because of European restrictions and regulations. With the advent of Open Skies, that could open up a tremendous amount of flying for U.S. carriers who currently cannot fly into certain markets because of European laws and regulations.

Personally, I do not see a major threat to either the pax or cargo side. People are still going to fly U.S. airlines because of their good reputation and safety record. I don't think that we would see foreign airlines competing with U.S. airlines on domestic travel routes. At best, someone like Air France may be allowed to continue a flight from JFK to LAX, but I don't think we will see them offering high frequency service between U.S. airports.

 

[Regul8r]

Not a Good Idea

Is it safe to assume that US Pilots make more than their foreign counterparts at the majors? What's to keep foreign investors from asking US Operators to reduce their pilot pay scales before they inject fresh capital? It's all about the money here folks and in order to keep costs down (Near the world wide average) they will need to bring pay scales down in accordance as well. Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't this what is happening in alot of US Industries i.e. auto? There's no foreign investment from abroad in the US auto industry (Ford, Delphi, GM) but the main driving force behind these pay cuts are the investors and financial backers and it's all in the name of competition. I'd say before any forign investors consider pouring money into a US Airline, they'll ask that labor either be outsourced or costs slashed.

 

[FlyUnited]

All one needs to do is log onto FlyerTalk to see that people love the foreign carriers. They would indeed fly them if they had the opportunity. This is very bad for Americans.

 

[Regul8r]

This is very bad for Americans.

Thanks United, I agree.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Dizel8,

Agreed, let's steer it back away from politics. I was afraid it was on track for going deep in that direction too. .

Huh? It is all about politics!!! Not about whose party is better, but the political issue!!!!

Everything that is determined that concerns out careers/jobs is decided politically on CapHill!!!


http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/lookup2.asp?strId=C00035451

 

[fokkerjet]

typhoon

...with memories of 9/11, Korea and WW2 still fresh in the minds of many Americans, I think you can safely rule out any ownership by our Arab, Chinese or Japanese brethren!

It really worked with the auto industry, you can see that nobody buys any Chinese or Japanese vehicles because memories of the Korean War and WWII..... What about the aircraft business; good people fought and died in Germany but we seem to want Airbus to build our next Air Force tanker............

 

[Regul8r]

I agree with Fokker, it's all about the Benjamin's here. US Management wouldn't bat an eyelash at sending the US workforce up Sh!t-creek if it made the bottom line look a little bit better.

 

[Dizel8]

Huh? It is all about politics!!! Not about whose party is better, but the political issue!!!!

I apologize Rez, I may not have been clear. You are absolutely correct, that this is a political issue. What I meant to say was, let's not turn it into Clinton vs Bush and who did what to whom. Now, this is taking place under Bush, however, I have little doubt, that had it been pushed when Clinton was in power, the spectre would be the same.

For those that think that access to the EU markets would be worth opening the US skies, I think we in the US stands to lose much more, than we stand to gain. The EU wants full, unfettered access to the US, probably point to point within the US.

Like someone esle said, other boards mostly frequented by frequent flyers are always raving about the likes of Virgin and Singapore/Thai, you know, cute little flight attendants. We know NWA managements dreams about using the very same F/A's.

As for the cargo side, I have no idea, how much revenue UPS or FedEx currently gets from the EU vs what they think they will get in the future, it certainly would be interesting to hear, but I still believe, that opening the skies would have some ugly side effects.

 

[OpenSkies]

Someone said on this board recently that it's now every pilot group for themselves. With that being said, open skies would be a great benefit to the UPS/IPA pilots.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Give to APA/ALPA-PAC

Yesterday, the Bush administration launched a notice of proposed rulemaking to change the control provision of the law governing foreign ownership and control of U.S. airlines. By attempting this NPRM, the administration is clearly trying to avoid and bypass the role of Congress.
ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, met with senior administration officials yesterday to get an explanation, and along with ALPA's Government Affairs staff, met with many members of Congress and their staff, who had just returned from briefings by the administration.
"Three things are clear," Capt. Woerth said. "First, the principal motivation behind this is to appease the European Union, which wants to clearly own and control U.S. airlines and has made it a condition of continuing bargaining over our U.S. and European Union multilateral trade agreement. Secondly, many members of Congress are very unhappy with the administration's jurisdictional grab or overreach. And third, U.S. airlines themselves are all over the map on whether they support this--or oppose this--or even understand it."
The public comment period will last 60 days, but the amount of time after that before a final rule on an NPRM is issued varies extremely widely--from many months to many years. What will happen or when or if a final rule will be issued after the public comment period is very unclear. ALPA will monitor and report on this crucial issue.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Before you think about how good it will be for us, remember this will be a reciprocal agreement.

Our airlines will be able to own foreign carriers too. UPS management could then use the planes owned by their foreign subsidary, French Fry freight and Chinese Chicken Cargo, to fly UPS cargo to Kentucky. That wouldn't be too good for the IPA.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Someone said on this board recently that it's now every pilot group for themselves. With that being said, open skies would be a great benefit to the UPS/IPA pilots.

That's true enough. Those new, less expensive, UPS pilots from Europe will be doing great on the new international routes to the US and abroad.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Before you think about how good it will be for us, remember this will be a reciprocal agreement.

Our airlines will be able to own foreign carriers too. UPS management could then use the planes owned by their foreign subsidary, French Fry freight and Chinese Chicken Cargo, to fly UPS cargo to Kentucky. That wouldn't be too good for the IPA.

Competition will increase and barriers to entry will fall further, IMHO. At the least, pressure on scope clauses and the like will increase. It may start slow at first so those within 5 years of retirement will probably like it.

Sounds familiar doesn't it. Airline X management to ALPA......"We'll just restrict the commuters to 19 seat turbo props and short routes where jet service is not economical." "You guys don't really want to fly those little planes to Hicksville do you?" "Worried about cheaper pilots taking your routes and jets?....No problem....we'll just have scope clauses to protect the mainline pilots". When will we learn?

 

[OpenSkies]

It's amazing how cynical you pax guys have become. Just because ALPA is so *************************ed up don't assume that every union is impotent.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's amazing how cynical you pax guys have become. Just because ALPA is so *************************ed up don't assume that every union is impotent.

If ALPA is jacked up, then so is the membership....

ALPA has alot of work to do, but so does it's membership........... Thier ignorance is eroding from within....

 

[JohnDoe]

Open skies (aka freight nazi, i have a pension):

You actually think, that if open skies becomes reality, your little contract will end up protecting you?? LOL.

Your company will be frothing at the mouth to drop you in favor of cheap foreign pilots any way they can.

Like somebody else said, It'll work both ways. They'll buy some foreign carrier and start bringing them into this country.

After the events of the last 5 years in this industry, how can you actually say "can't happen here...."??

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Open skies (aka freight nazi, i have a pension):

You actually think, that if open skies becomes reality, your little contract will end up protecting you?? LOL.

Your company will be frothing at the mouth to drop you in favor of cheap foreign pilots any way they can.

Like somebody else said, It'll work both ways. They'll buy some foreign carrier and start bringing them into this country.

After the events of the last 5 years in this industry, how can you actually say "can't happen here...."??

The US currently has open skies agreements with numerous countries. Following your logic, I'm curious why UPS hasn't already replaced most of us?

If you peruse other message boards with a primarily european audience (ex PPRuNe), you'll read exactly the same protectionist sentiments. If anything, I'd say they are more fearful of the onslaught by US carriers than vice-versa.

As far as UPS goes ... from a corporate standpoint they want to remove barriers to trade ... period. More trade = more need for their services = more profit. Many european routes that are currently flown by a european subcontractor for UPS due to route authority restrictions (Star Air) are more expensive to operate than if crewed by IPA pilots. Remember, UPS serves over 200 countries and territories ... many through an expensive patchwork of subcontractors and leased belly space on foreign pax planes due to all the protectionist route restrictions ... this all adds greatly to the cost of moving goods between countries with trade barriers. UPS would love to eliminate the middleman and maintain operational control over the movement of goods along their entire route.

An off topic consideration: more countries engaged in cross border trade and more interdependent on that trade for economic and social stability has the added benefit of reducing the potential for armed conflict between highly dependent trading partners ... so goes the thinking that paid thinkers think about at think tanks.

BBB