US Airways goes after Senior Pilots

[treetopflyer]

speaking of not finding anyone to fly the aircraft to the desert.....

there are a couple of guys at Independence that would do it for you.

p.s. there on the furlogh list at delta.

 

[glasspilot1]

"worthless" step up to the plate????

But then again, we haven't heard a thing from Duane Worthe as 3500 of it's members ride a mismanaged airline down in flames, so why would he step to the plate and earn his $400k/year now?
Red

Worthless step up to the plate? How long do you have to wait?

Glasspilot1
former TWA

 

[typhoonpilot]

I sympathize fully with the U pilots and believe you should reject this decimation of seniority proposal, even if it results in the end of U. But, I have to ask.

When the U pilots proposed and subsequently agreed to a system that forced the abrogation of seniority at every regional carrier affiliated with U, how come they were not at all concerned about the seniority issues or precedents?

Why is it OK for U pilots to force other ALPA pilots to relinquish their seniority in favor of the U pilots, but it is not OK for the company to ask U pilots to give up their own seniority in favor of other U pilots?

It seems like U pilots have already given the company the idea that they will trash seniority for self-interest. The only thing that's changed is whose seniority is now likely to be thrashed.

I'm afraid there are lots of rats in ALPA's belfry.

Come on Surplus. Even though I figured out a couple of years ago that we would never agree on the subject of RJs and Jets for Jobs your statement isn't accurate. The two issues here are not even remotely similar. In the jets for jobs issue we are talkng about a major airline giving mainline flying away to a regional resulting in the loss of mainline jobs. How is it even remotely fair that none of those extra jobs at the regional would be allowed to go to the mainline pilots ? All of the regional pilots are still senior to the J4J pilots and are working for a growing airline where their seniority just keeps getting better.

Please also remember that J4J was not the first choice of the USAirways pilots. Their first choice was to do the flying themselves.

On second thought, maybe the issue is similar since under your plan the junior U pilots would be on the street while the junior regional pilots who were given the former U flying would get to upgrade on their shiny new jet

Typhoonpilot

 

[hopeful]

SWA wants the 737-800's (I know, SWA doesn't fly 800's yet but they are interested) but not the crews. This is ATA's way of trying to make the aquisition happen.

 

[climbhappy]

how can Alpa benefit the U pilot group?

Freshwater, the union rep was quoted in the Charlotte observer as," We will not consent to a voluntary rape!" when asked about the Mgt proposal days before the BK filing.

Now that there's talk of furloughing out of senority, tell me how this benefit's anybody. It would appear that if one is willing to lose everything and not just part, somehow that doesn't add up.

If you think shuttin 'er down is the answer, I've got a bar stool waitin on ya.

 

[N2264J]

When the U pilots proposed and subsequently agreed to a system that forced the abrogation of seniority at every regional carrier affiliated with U, how come they were not at all concerned about the seniority issues or precedents?

Why is it OK for U pilots to force other ALPA pilots to relinquish their seniority in favor of the U pilots, but it is not OK for the company to ask U pilots to give up their own seniority in favor of other U pilots?

It seems like U pilots have already given the company the idea that they will trash seniority for self-interest. The only thing that's changed is whose seniority is now likely to be thrashed.

Sometimes, the observations you make give me the chills.

On reflection, all empiricle data seems to point to your being dead on accurate here. The US Airways pilots bargained away the seniority of their ALPA brothers at the wholly owns, telegraphing to managment that any union member seniority was for sale. Now that the chickens are coming home to roost, they recoil in horror as management attacks their own seniority list.

I hope the Delta pilots are savvy enough to understand this simple principle. Probably not but I think it's safe to say that airline managements everywhere understand that ALPA is not a union.

 

[Publishers]

right

You all are right, much much better that the airline just shut down and liquidate than try and get the holy grail undone. That will certainly eliminate any of those annoying debates over who goes and who stays.

 

[FlyingSig]

I sympathize fully with the U pilots and believe you should reject this decimation of seniority proposal, even if it results in the end of U. But, I have to ask.

When the U pilots proposed and subsequently agreed to a system that forced the abrogation of seniority at every regional carrier affiliated with U, how come they were not at all concerned about the seniority issues or precedents?
.

The same could be said about the Piedmont, ALG, PSA, and Mesa pilot groups. Their MEC's did sign their own agreements did they not? They had a choice and they chose survival. Put the blame where it belongs...at BOTH parties feet, not just the mainline group. The USAir Express carriers all had the opportunity to make a statement, yet they ended up fighting over who got more jets.

Why are mainline pilots now expected to fight to the death over this (which, don't get me wrong, I too agree that this is the line in the sand) but the regional pilots are "forced" to go along?

 

[surplus1]

Come on Surplus. Even though I figured out a couple of years ago that we would never agree on the subject of RJs and Jets for Jobs your statement isn't accurate. The two issues here are not even remotely similar. In the jets for jobs issue we are talkng about a major airline giving mainline flying away to a regional resulting in the loss of mainline jobs. How is it even remotely fair that none of those extra jobs at the regional would be allowed to go to the mainline pilots ? All of the regional pilots are still senior to the J4J pilots and are working for a growing airline where their seniority just keeps getting better.

I don't mind your disagreement on the subject of RJs or anything else however, my statement is far more accurate than your obviously biased interpretation of the facts. If the pilots of a "major airline" chose to give away some of their flying, which the U and several other mainline groups did, the consequences are of their own creation. That is quite different from giving themselves "super seniority" over the pilots of another airline.

You can call these transfering mainline pilots "junior" to the regional pilots if you wish, but not all regional pilots are stupid enough to buy that gambit. When you force yourself into a captain seat that should be mine and then tell me that you are "junior" to me you are not telling the truth. What J4J forces is little different from what the company has now proposed at U, i.e., the abrogation of seniority. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't change facts.

Please also remember that J4J was not the first choice of the USAirways pilots. Their first choice was to do the flying themselves.

Whether it was their first choice of their last choice is irrelevant. When you do not succeed at getting your "first choice" it does not give you the right to steal another pilots seniority, in another airline, as your 2nd or your last choice. A thief is a theif. When he stole, how he stole or why he stole is irrelevant. Had they achieved what you call their 1st choice, that would have been fine. All the other "choices" were wrong.

On second thought, maybe the issue is similar since under your plan the junior U pilots would be on the street while the junior regional pilots who were given the former U flying would get to upgrade on their shiny new jet

There is no maybe about the similarity; both scenarios represent the abrogation of seniority. How it is done does not change what it is.

First, the "former U flying was voluntarily relinquished by the U pilots themselves. If as a result they wind up on the streets I feel sorry (as I would for any pilot on the streets). But, that doesn't give them any rights to the seniority of any pilot at a different airline. Sorry, your logic is nonexistant.
A turd by any name is still a turd.

A pilot on any seniority list who is "junior" to another pilot on the same list, never gets the "right" to upgrade or do anything else ahead of the senior pilot unless that senior pilot declines. When the junior pilot somehow manages to "cut a deal" that places him ahead of the senior pilot he has stolen the seniority of the "senior" pilot. How he manges to cut that deal does not change black to white.

Whether you like it or whether you do not, that is exactly what J4J does. It's a turd and we both know it.

 

[surplus1]

The same could be said about the Piedmont, ALG, PSA, and Mesa pilot groups. Their MEC's did sign their own agreements did they not? They had a choice and they chose survival. Put the blame where it belongs...at BOTH parties feet, not just the mainline group. The USAir Express carriers all had the opportunity to make a statement, yet they ended up fighting over who got more jets.

While your arguments are far more logical that those of the previous poster, they carefully omit certain elements that would render them void. Had they been given a true choice, I could agree with you; they were not. IF the MEC's of PDT/ALG/PSA/MES/TSA and CHQ had sat down with the UMEC and determined by consensus or even by majority that "Jets for Jobs" was the best solution to their problems, you wouldn't be hearing any squawks from me. That did NOT happen. In fact it was not even attempted. Nothing took place that could even remotely by construed as "good faith bargaining".

What DID happen is that the U pilots, with the full support of the ALPA, unilaterally negotiated this "agreement" with the Company (USAG). Subsequently, ALPA, which is the representative of ALL of them, excepting CHQ, literally coerced, if not extorted, the "consent" of the regional carriers, subsidiaries as well as subcontractors, pitting them against each other in consort with management. They were not given a "choice" by any stretch of the imagination; they were given an ultimatum, negotiated by their own union. Therefore, in the case of J4J, I am putting the blame where it belongs; squarely at the feet of the ALPA and the UMEC.

In all of our courts, a civil contract signed under duress is normally rendered invalid. That concept even applies to criminal law, where a victim may not give "consent" if under duress or threat, e.g., I cannot have consensual sex with you while you hold a knife to my throat. In that circumstance we call it rape.

In many cases labor unions have managed to manuever around these legal obstacles while hiding behind the RLA and its discretionary largess. This labor union, ALPA, appears however to have overlooked the fact that Federal Law establishes a Duty of Fair Representation, which requires the union to protect the interests of its member units and which does not permit the union to discriminate against one while favoring the other. That legally required "fair representation" is not optional and few reasonable men would fail to agree that it has been blatantly violated by the "Jets for Jobs" protocols.

As you already know, I don't work for any of the airlines with J4J programs so I have not lost or gained anything from this. I object to it because I believe it is wrong. If anything like it is ever attempted at my airline, I would hope that our pilots would reject it without hesitation and regardless of any level of coercion or extortion that might come from the ALPA or anyone else.

Why are mainline pilots now expected to fight to the death over this (which, don't get me wrong, I too agree that this is the line in the sand) but the regional pilots are "forced" to go along?

If you wish to take an honest look at what is happening at U now, you will be able to see the similarities between the two situations as well as the differences. If you haven't, I will attempt to point them out.

At present, the Company (USAirGroup) is attempting to coerce the U pilots into giving up their seniority, alleging that unless they do so they will not survive. I can only hope that the Company will fail in its attempt.

Just a while back the Union (ALPA) and the UMEC, working together, were attempting to coerce the regional carriers to accept, i.e., "take it or leave it", the abrogation of their seniority, at the hand of their own union. The union alleged that if they did not, they would not survive. The union succeeded in acheiving its desired end and the "regional MEC's" ultimately caved, one by one.

In the case of the current situation at U, I don't really know whether giving up seniority is the difference between survival or not. I suspect that it really isn't. Even if it is, I think the price is too high to pay and given a choice, I would refuse.

In the case of the previous situation (J4J) I firmly believe that the "survival" of the regional carries was NOT dependent on their acceptance of J4J. Yes, the Company wanted more RJs, but I'm quite sure the Company did not demand that any percentage of them be flown by mainline pilots. That was the idea of the ALPA and the UMEC. I believe that they (the regional pilots) were lied to by their own union and coerced into accepting it. The "deals" were made behind their backs, without their consent and without their participation, after which their own union threatened them, whipsawed them, and duped them into accepting it. They (the union) even went so far as to not only condone but promote the creation of alter egos to further their ends. What were those "ends"? Abrogation of seniority at the regionals in order to favor the furloughed mainline pilots. In my not so humble opinion, that is unforgiveable.

Can it be corrected? Yes, I believe that it can. How? Through legal action against the union. As far as I know a group of ALG pilots are taking such action and a group of PSA pilots may soon follow.

Should this type of behavior by the union be prevented in the future? Absolutely. How? By whatever legal means are available to affected pilots, including those that are only potentially threatened by similar attempts. It is far better to "head them off at the pass" than to lie in wait and be ambushed.

The answer to what the Union has already done and to what the Company is now trying to do should not be no, it should be HE!! NO!

JMO.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Come on Surplus. Even though I figured out a couple of years ago that we would never agree on the subject of RJs and Jets for Jobs your statement isn't accurate. The two issues here are not even remotely similar. In the jets for jobs issue we are talkng about a major airline giving mainline flying away to a regional resulting in the loss of mainline jobs. How is it even remotely fair that none of those extra jobs at the regional would be allowed to go to the mainline pilots ? All of the regional pilots are still senior to the J4J pilots and are working for a growing airline where their seniority just keeps getting better.

Please also remember that J4J was not the first choice of the USAirways pilots. Their first choice was to do the flying themselves.

On second thought, maybe the issue is similar since under your plan the junior U pilots would be on the street while the junior regional pilots who were given the former U flying would get to upgrade on their shiny new jet

Typhoonpilot

I think you are missing the point.

If they want to fly for another airline, they should apply. This is business, not some game.

 

[328dude]

Can it be corrected? Yes, I believe that it can. How? Through legal action against the union. As far as I know a group of ALG pilots are taking such action and a group of PSA pilots may soon follow.

Funny, how ALPA is dead set against the latest U proposal (senority issue), but no where to be found when a WO carrier was faced with a similar action. Wothless himself even lied about the so called dead-line. As always, he denies it.

 

[SWAnnabee]

All USAir pilots should use this speech, modified as needed, with the USAir management;

Pilot: "... my job consists of basically masking my contempt for the assholes in charge, and, at least once a day, retiring to the men's room so I can jerk off while I fantasize about a life that doesn't so closely resemble hell."

Mgmt: Well, you obviously have no interest in saving yourself.


Pilot: I've spent fourteen years being a whore for the (aviatioin) industry. The only way I could save myself now is to start firebombing.

Mgmt: Whatever. Management wants you gone by the end of the day.

Pilot: Whoa. What kind of severance package is "management" prepared to give me? Considering the information I have about our (insert title of most hated mgmt person) buying pu&&y with company money. Which I'm sure would interest the I.R.S., since, technically, it does constitute fraud. And some of our advertisers and rival publications might like to know about it as well. Not to mention Craig's wife.

Mgmt: What do you want?

Pilot: One year's salary, with continued benefits.

Mgmt: That's not going to happen.

Pilot: What if I throw in a little sexual harassment charge?

Mgmt: Against who?

Pilot: Against you. Can you prove you didn't offer to save my job if I'd let you blow me?

Mgmt: Man. You are one twisted f*%k.

Pilot: Nope. Just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. I hope you and I can still be friends. And even though you didn't save my job... you can still blow me, asshole.


Best of luck guys. Hang tough.