US Airway news - not good

[HA25]

I think I am going to buy stock in airline "D"......

Good, that means my analogy worked!

 

[WhiteCloud]

:

Airline A, B, C, and D all have x, y, z as expenses. Airlines A,B & C all also have an additional expense, we'll call it p (for pension).

Just to add that if Airline A, B, C and D all have taxes on facilities, gas and on each ticket issued (to name a few) that cause the cost of the trip to become prohibitive, customers will drive or not go.

 

[festus]

Is the pilot retirement plan at Airways the only group that was targeted? Any other groups retirement dropped?

 

[mobs]

The pilot plan is the only group that is under fire. I,if it gets by,will take about a 75% hit after 38 yrs. because I will not have the time to make it up on a DC plan. No other plan is taking a hit. ALPA is trying to do someting about it. We have to do something for all USAir pilots wheather on furllough,retired or active. It is the first time the pilots are standing together. Mobs

 

[HA25]

The pilot plan is the only group that is under fire. I,if it gets by,will take about a 75% hit after 38 yrs. because I will not have the time to make it up on a DC plan. No other plan is taking a hit. ALPA is trying to do someting about it. We have to do something for all USAir pilots wheather on furllough,retired or active. It is the first time the pilots are standing together. Mobs

God speed brother... I hope you boys can keep what you worked hard for, but if not, atleast keep what you can.

 

[mobs]

V70T5, Thanks for the kind words. We may be making some headway. I still have to remind myself that an optimist is just a pesimist with less information. Mobs

 

[reepicheep]

US Airways ALPA has also provided 100% of managment's target givebacks vs. 70% for the other employee groups. Management knows what we know here on the board - 1000's of qualified applicants for a few jobs and a steep dropoff in pay to start. Bag-smashers & f/a's have a lot less to lose. Management is specifically going after the pilots to the relative exclusion of the rest of the employees. They are betting that "any job's better than no job".

 

[100LL... Again!]

I didn't know that we were all entitled to a pension.

Is it morally wrong for the company to not to provide a pension?

 

[Boeingman]

US Airways ALPA has also provided 100% of managment's target givebacks vs. 70% for the other employee groups. Management knows what we know here on the board - 1000's of qualified applicants for a few jobs and a steep dropoff in pay to start. Bag-smashers & f/a's have a lot less to lose. Management is specifically going after the pilots to the relative exclusion of the rest of the employees. They are betting that "any job's better than no job".

I predicted this a long time ago. They will just keep coming back for more and more. It will never be enough. I've been there and seen this same type of situation. At some point, you guys have to say enough is enough. Take the job and shove it.

In the end, that is all it is....a job.

Don't let these bastards strip your dignity and rip you off.

Good luck

 

[mobs]

I didn't know that we were all entitled to a pension.

Is it morally wrong for the company to not to provide a pension?

When a company has had intact a pension that is part of a contract that was agreed to be paid as a part of a labor agreement yes. To withdraw from a past obligatory contract is wrong,just as if you were not paid for what you might have worked last month. USAirways is withdrawing the monies set aside for the fund and turning the obligation over to the PBGC and the tax payer. Mobs

 

[CitationLover]

mobs

they are bankrupt. where is the money going to come from?!?! they usairways money tree needs watering.

pensions are benefits, not compensation. this is the problem with social security also, everyone feels entitled to it (congress included which uses its money for its pork projects) and thus it is overdrawn.

 

[Boeingman]

you're confusing an obligation with entitlement

mobs

they are bankrupt. where is the money going to come from?!?! they usairways money tree needs watering.

pensions are benefits, not compensation. this is the problem with social security also, everyone feels entitled to it (congress included which uses its money for its pork projects) and thus it is overdrawn.

While I don't have a dog in this particular fight, and I am sure that mobs can respond, I couldn't let this one go.

There is no difference between a "benefit" or "compensation" while governed under the collective bargaining agreement.

Where the money is going to come from falls under the obligation of USAir as they are a party to the contract they signed with their pilots. This contract also defined a pension benefit payable to the pilot group. A contractual obligation is an obligation whether it be a per diem payout, pay rate, duty rigs....etc. etc.

When you start earning real money and pay thousands upon thousands of dollars into the SS system, you are entitled to it's benefits.

If you don't feel this will affect you in the future should their management get away with this theft, you have a great deal to learn about this industry.

 

[reepicheep]

They may be bankrupt but they evidently have the money to continue the pension plans of the other labor groups which they intend to fund with the windfall they will gain from terminating ALPA's pension. I got into the wrong line after high school; I guess the burn-outs who hung out at the 7-11 and got drunk every night while I was studying for my writtens and then went out and got cleaner jobs with USAir weren't so dumb after all. Who knew?

 

[HA25]

I didn't know that we were all entitled to a pension.

Is it morally wrong for the company to not to provide a pension?

Is this guy joking?

 

[CitationLover]

boeingman your condesending attitude is nice. i've paid into ss and understand the entitlement, however the govt treats it like income tax money so no we are not entitled to it.

i worked in the pension industry for seven years so I do know what i'm talking about. stick to flying airplanes.

the contractual obligation is noted, however bankruptcy is also written in and this contingency is a "way out". the plan is funded to a point, it is the worst of both situations (decreasing market and low interest rates) and thus is in its situation.

 

[sfomarc]

Hey I just bought 100,000 shares of airline D, double D to be exact. Hooter Air.

Talk about a pention plan, theres will knock your socks off and then some.

 

[CitationLover]

is it safe to assume you'd like to be a "supporter" of hooters air?

 

[100LL... Again!]

I was quoted:
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Originally posted by 100LL... Again!
I didn't know that we were all entitled to a pension.

Is it morally wrong for the company to not to provide a pension?
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Response was:

-----------------------------------------------------

Is this guy joking?
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To clarify: My post was in response to this:

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Originally posted by hateairlines
I find it ironic that a SWA/FO posts this-SWA being the one major airline in the world that is to cheap to even have a pension plan????????
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And what a lot of people don't understand, is that it only takes one airline to be cheap and the rest will have a hell of a time competing...
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If a pension has been negotiated, then it SHOULD be paid to the employees. I am refereing to the implication that it is was wrong for a company not to offer one to begin with. I.E.: SWA.

Pensions, like it or not, are unlikely to be a feature of any new company or industry. It is not right or wring - just a reality.

Ain't free markets awful?

 

[sfomarc]

Working at SWA I would love to have an pension, I would also like to stay home and collect a paycheck, two things that will never happen at SWA.

You cant blame any one thing on the demise of the majors. Our no pension, low fare, low pay didnt seem to put a dent in them for many years. UAL capts making 340K or so in their last negotiating session. I do think that over time with dwindling profits that every penny was important.

How much does a DAL or UAL spend on crew meals a year? Trip drops with pay for vacation? Lots of employees standing around doing nothing and acting like they are postal employees. How much does it cost UAL for paying for employee parking? How about paper for the printer for the ACARS? Every last cent makes a difference.

The country is not what it was and the loss of pensions will not just effect the airline industry. I do agree that the pension should not be totally tossed and they need to stand ground on this point.

 

[HA25]

Working at SWA I would love to have an pension, I would also like to stay home and collect a paycheck, two things that will never happen at SWA.

You cant blame any one thing on the demise of the majors. Our no pension, low fare, low pay didnt seem to put a dent in them for many years. UAL capts making 340K or so in their last negotiating session. I do think that over time with dwindling profits that every penny was important.

How much does a DAL or UAL spend on crew meals a year? Trip drops with pay for vacation? Lots of employees standing around doing nothing and acting like they are postal employees. How much does it cost UAL for paying for employee parking? How about paper for the printer for the ACARS? Every last cent makes a difference.

The country is not what it was and the loss of pensions will not just effect the airline industry. I do agree that the pension should not be totally tossed and they need to stand ground on this point.

If UAL's $340,000 Captains broke the airlines, then why is it that DAL's $350,000 Captains haven't?

Its a lot more complex than pilot pay. And a Pention, while not a right, is and should be part of every major airline compensation package, and it is up to us as pilots to hold our ground, rather than resign ourselves to turning every airline into a SWA.

 

[Boeingman]

boeingman your condesending attitude is nice.

Thank you. It does get a but tiring to see management wanabees spouting off information coming from left field.

i've paid into ss and understand the entitlement, however the govt treats it like income tax money so no we are not entitled to it.

What the govenrment does or doesn't do with SS withholdings does not change the fact that it is a entitlment at a given age, depending on your year of birth. Your post above admits that, but you talk in circles.

i worked in the pension industry for seven years so I do know what i'm talking about.

Could of fooled me.

stick to flying airplanes.

Actually, flying airliners is only a part time deal for me. I have a business that has been extremely lucrative over the last 20 years.
You're out of your element talking finances with me.

the contractual obligation is noted,

Yes, and the bankruptcy judge noted it as well. I wonder why that is? Or are you going to tell us you've been in the legal industry for 7 years as well?

however bankruptcy is also written in and this contingency is a "way out". the plan is funded to a point, it is the worst of both situations (decreasing market and low interest rates) and thus is in its situation.

Too bad about the reasons for the drop. You don't see their other U employee plans being abrogated do you? Does their collective bargaining agreement allow for the plan to be terminated or modified when specific perfomances are not met? I don't think so.

The point I'm trying to make is contractually you cannot just wipe out a plan because of some problem here or there. If U was in such bad shape, they could recover the $35 million from wolf and Gangwal and the other guy to start and bring up the pension.


Your assertations and ideas would wreak havoc if it were true and implemented on a wholesale basis. Thankfully the bankruptcy court agreed and sent it back to an arbitrator. This is a good example of why you need a strong union.

 

[canyonblue]

And a Pention, while not a right, is and should be part of every major airline compensation package, and it is up to us as pilots to hold our ground, rather than resign ourselves to turning every airline into a SWA.

And a Profit Sharing Plan paying thousands per year and a 401k match up to 7.3% while not a right, is and should be part of every major airline compensation package, and it is up to us as pilots to hold our ground, rather than resign ourselves to turning every airline into a _______*.

Insert your own airline here.

 

[CitationLover]

get a clue boeingman...

will a flight attendant have a $130,000/yr pension? will a gate agent have one that big? of course not, but pilots (esp. career ones) have pensions that big, thus the liabilities are huge. this is why usairways is targeting the pilots plans and not the other ones (out of all of UAL's pension plans, their pilots plan covers 80% of the liabilities).

if you're such the financial expert and know all about pensions, what action can usairways take to limit their liability exposure to all pension liability? the only way is to terminate the plan, which they have a right to do (it is written into the contract, ie it was negotiated - it does not matter if the plan is over/underfunded). the airline pensions are all in piss-poor shape (see UAL, TWA, etc.) along with most defined benefit pension plans as these days assets have tanked and interest rates are way down.

again, alpa could give two sh!ts about pensions. retirees and work transfers they could care less about (they don't pay dues). all alpa cares about is higher wages for ACTIVE dues paying members (and thus increase the alpa incoming dues).

one thing we do agree on is that wolf/etc will be paid and it is a travesty. the reason i left the pension industry was seeing all to often mgmt receiving their pensions and increasing it (mgmt plans are unfunded by nature to avoid nondiscrimination issues) while cutting the general ones.

 

[WhiteCloud]

And a Profit Sharing Plan paying thousands per year and a 401k match up to 7.3% while not a right, is and should be part of every major airline compensation package, and it is up to us as pilots to hold our ground, rather than resign ourselves to turning every airline into a _______*.

Insert your own airline here.

All the evidence for having an individual retirement plan that is NOT tied to the fortunes of an airline is right here in this thread. Ziggy1