US Air Superiority in flux?

[AirCobra]

"Jack of all trades, master of none". You clearly don't understand the capabilities of the Air Force specialized assets.

As to no more Fighter guys in leadership positions, yes let put shoe clerks and cargo pilots in charge of deciding what the Combat Air Force fighter mix should look like.

YGTBSM

Wars are 1% combat 99% logistics. Those who do better at logistics win the battle. You can't get a fighter to the battle without a tanker, especially in places like Afghanistan. A UAV can shoot a missle and stay aloft 12 hours, a fighter can't fly to a target without gas. Are fighter jets inserting SOF, tanking C-17's, flying in ammo, or food? Do you want fighter guys trying to take all the budget for a future super fighter so expensive we will be lucky to procure a few squadrons worth when its the tankers, lift and helo guys that are doing the real work right now. YGTBSM

 

[MasterOfYaw]

Wars are 1% combat 99% logistics. Those who do better at logistics win the battle. You can't get a fighter to the battle without a tanker, especially in places like Afghanistan. A UAV can shoot a missle and stay aloft 12 hours, a fighter can't fly to a target without gas. Are fighter jets inserting SOF, tanking C-17's, flying in ammo, or food? Do you want fighter guys trying to take all the budget for a future super fighter so expensive we will be lucky to procure a few squadrons worth when its the tankers, lift and helo guys that are doing the real work right now. YGTBSM

AirCobra, you seem to believe we will never again face off against a s[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']ophisticated enemy. Americans thought the same thing in the 1930's. The sailors, soldiers and airman of 1941 paid a heavy price for our ceding control of the skies to contries we considered to be poverty stricken backwaters in 1931. Americans will no longer tolerate the types of loses we will sustain under enemy controled skies. If we do not act to ensure our control of the skies in the future, we might as well shut down our military, bend over, and take whatever the UN or any adversary wants to give us to keep the peace. The price of the F-22 is huge, but the cost of everything else in the budget is a waste without it.[/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Wars are the result of wishful thinking coupled with weakness.[/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']MofY[/FONT]

 

[USMCAirWinger]

F-15, F-15E, F-16, F-22, and the F-35. These aircraft all can basically the same thing.

Sure, however some do it better than the others. Like I said before, each airframe brings different capabilities to the fight. Moreover, there's some really nasty stuff out there (google SAM systems and look at the ranges of latest designs).

Not to mention there is also the A-10 which is perpetually being eliminated that also has many of the same missions.

The Air Force is spending millions to upgrade them to the C model and fly until around 2030. Once again, this is a specialized CAS asset that does it better than all.

Now we have B-1, B-2's and B-52's doing CAS because of the JADAM too.

They do this now because its a NO threat environment.

The Navy used to have seperate aircraft for all its missions (A-4, A-7, A-6, EA-6, F-4, F-14, RC-5, RF-8, KA-3D) but now with better avionics and weapons systems they combined it all into one aircraft. Maybe the FA-18 is the master of none of its missions

So do tell why the Navy wants F-35s.

What kind of a budget drain is the Air Force going to be on the rest of the armed forces when it tries to maintain 9 airframes for CAS, 3 for Air to Air, and 3 to deliver nukes.

First, the strategic bombers are just that. They happen to be doing CAS but their real mission is NOT CAS . That leaves 3 that do CAS. Of these 3, 1 is really good at it. The other 2, not so much.

 

[AirCobra]

AirCobra, you seem to believe we will never again face off against a s[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']ophisticated enemy. Americans thought the same thing in the 1930's. The sailors, soldiers and airman of 1941 paid a heavy price for our ceding control of the skies to contries we considered to be poverty stricken backwaters in 1931. Americans will no longer tolerate the types of loses we will sustain under enemy controled skies. If we do not act to ensure our control of the skies in the future, we might as well shut down our military, bend over, and take whatever the UN or any adversary wants to give us to keep the peace. The price of the F-22 is huge, but the cost of everything else in the budget is a waste without it.[/font]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Wars are the result of wishful thinking coupled with weakness.[/font]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']MofY[/font]

In 1931 we were not at war, we are right now. We did not field fleets of jets in WW2 because a 100-1 advantage of P-51's could make sure very few Germans jets could get off the ground. So we did not expend resources on something unnecessary for victory in the war we were in. Finally in 1931 American aircraft had no significant advantage in technology over our potential enemies, now our missles and radar are 20 years ahead. If in 1931 the Germans had biplane fighters and we had F-86's, would you be advocating spending a large portion our limited Depression damaged defense budget on small squadrons of more advanced aircraft.

 

[AC560]

Again the Buff is great provided that we have air supremacy. Try to send said Buffs into downtown Pyongyang and see what happens.

Or just have them drop cruise missiles from a very safe distance.

AirCobra, you seem to believe we will never again face off against a sophisticated enemy. Americans thought the same thing in the 1930's.

We didn't have a rather robust nuclear arsenal in the 1930's. Anyone who is going to pose a real threat to us near term (China or Russia) isn't going to be decided with F-22's it will be decided Dr. Strangelove style.

Could you put a teenage driver into Tony Stewart's car and expect him to win Daytona?

Could you buy snow skis just like Bode Miller and become an olympic skier?

You put an Iranian in an F-14 and you still have a dead Iranian when he faces a US Navy or USAF pilot. Training is the big difference.

And this is where we would be smarter to put our money. You can train a hell of a lot of great pilots, sailors, and soldiers for the price of 1 F-22. Fundamentally I couldn't agree more with CatfishVT9's comments.

Thanks to all on the thread who protect the right for us to have this argument.

 

[Wanderlust]

I don't see an air superiority fighter being a priority in today's theaters. It's an expensive toy that's essentially obsolete. "Pork", I think you call it?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I think we should get rid of the AF, and the certain assets, especially the A-10 should go to the Army, and other assets to the Navy. If we need a separate service, we should have a Space service.

The new air-superiority airframes ARE too expensive. We can modify the airframes we have, both physically and with software, to create a much better aircraft, just like the Israeli's do with our airframes (and I've heard the Iranians have done with the F-14s we gave them-IDIOTS!!!).

I was a victim of the short-sightedness with cancelling the SAR helo buy, to fund more fighters. Someone needs to be in charge of the military who is look after the best interests of AMERICA, and not even just the military, not to mention the Air Force or the fighter community.

The correct question is: What is the most efficient use of our money governmental units that will help America the most, to include an EFFECTIVE military?

NOT an easy question to answer.

cliff
GRB

 

[CatfishVT9]

A buddy of mine sent me this. Don't know if it's true or not, but never let the truth get in the way of a good story..........

The conversation went something like this...

" Iranian Air Defense Radar: 'Unknown aircraft you are in Iranian airspace Identify yourself.'

Aircraft: 'This is a United States aircraft. I am in Iraqi airspace.'

Air Defense Radar: 'You are in Iranian airspace. If you do not depart our airspace we will launch interceptor aircraft!'

Aircraft: 'This is a United States Marine Corps FA-18 fighter Send 'em up, I'll wait!'

Radar: (no response ... total silence)

 

[Wanderlust]

A buddy of mine sent me this. Don't know if it's true or not, but never let the truth get in the way of a good story..........

The conversation went something like this...

" Iranian Air Defense Radar: 'Unknown aircraft you are in Iranian airspace Identify yourself.'

Aircraft: 'This is a United States aircraft. I am in Iraqi airspace.'

Air Defense Radar: 'You are in Iranian airspace. If you do not depart our airspace we will launch interceptor aircraft!'

Aircraft: 'This is a United States Marine Corps FA-18 fighter Send 'em up, I'll wait!'

Radar: (no response ... total silence)

Air Defense Radar: 'Unknown aircraft you are in Iranian airspace Identify yourself.'

ICBM: *silence*

Air Defense Radar: 'Unknown aircraft you are in Iranian airspace identify yourself immediately!!'

ICBM: *silence*

Air Defense Radar: 'Unknown aircra- *static*

*silence*

 

[Mamma]

"Jack of all trades, master of none". You clearly don't understand the capabilities of the Air Force specialized assets.

As to no more Fighter guys in leadership positions, yes let put shoe clerks and cargo pilots in charge of deciding what the Combat Air Force fighter mix should look like.

YGTBSM

USMCAirWinger,
They put a fighter guy in charge of deciding what the mobility Air Force mix would look like and he did pretty well (Gen Fogelman). I would guess he knew absolutely jack about mobility assets (in the detail needed) when he assumed the job, but he had smart mobility pilots to draw from to get his information. He then used his exceptional leadership skills to get it done. I don't know if this is the best way to do things normally but maybe it brings a fresh point of view in. A lot of folks believe the Air Force was run by fighter guys since inception when the truth of the matter is they only came into running things from the top (CSAF) in the 1980s. It was bomber and mobility pilots running the show (CSAF) for the 30+ years prior to that. I think they did a pretty good job on appropriations. F-4, F-15, A-10, F-16 and so on.
I understand what you are saying, but I think history might disagree.