cougar6903
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UPT Question's
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CAP10B
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One loss due to CRUD injury in first week, (washed back a couple classes).
The other loss was an SIE in the first phase of tweets.
>>>Also if you remember, what was the fighter/heavy/RW break down for those who complete UPT?<<<
The 'breakdown' comes at track select, about midway through. If all goes well and you're at the top of your class, you'll have the ability to choose your track (with flight commander approval). As far as I can recall, you're looking at about a 15/85 split (f:b/h). There were no helos for our track.
Civilian translation decoder ring:
SIE - self initiated elimination
CRUD - basically, full-contact drunk pool
f:b/h - fighter:bomber/heavy
edit: Two heavy slots went to BUFFs, One fighter slot went to the BONE
The other loss was an SIE in the first phase of tweets.
>>>Also if you remember, what was the fighter/heavy/RW break down for those who complete UPT?<<<
The 'breakdown' comes at track select, about midway through. If all goes well and you're at the top of your class, you'll have the ability to choose your track (with flight commander approval). As far as I can recall, you're looking at about a 15/85 split (f:b/h). There were no helos for our track.
Civilian translation decoder ring:
SIE - self initiated elimination
CRUD - basically, full-contact drunk pool
f:b/h - fighter:bomber/heavy
edit: Two heavy slots went to BUFFs, One fighter slot went to the BONE
Last edited:
no guarntee
Going into ROTC or the Academy does not promise you a pilot slot. You have to qualify physically and mentally. Lots of medical exams before you get a slot and then a few more after you get one that can eliminate you. The AFOQT is the test that qualifies you for pilot selection. Currently classes in UPT are made up of 28-30 students per class. There is usually one person in each class thats SIE's and 1 or 2 that wash out. In the most recent drops for track select there has been around 5 T-38's per class, 10 T-1's or more 2-4 T-44's and every so often there is a Helo. Go after your dream, but focus on school first, obtaining a slot second, preparing for UPT if you go, study your butt of in UPT, because the academic are what you can control. Remember the instructors are there to teach the military style of flying so take there advice and you will make it through. Attitude is key to making it in UPT.
Best Wishes
Thumper
Going into ROTC or the Academy does not promise you a pilot slot. You have to qualify physically and mentally. Lots of medical exams before you get a slot and then a few more after you get one that can eliminate you. The AFOQT is the test that qualifies you for pilot selection. Currently classes in UPT are made up of 28-30 students per class. There is usually one person in each class thats SIE's and 1 or 2 that wash out. In the most recent drops for track select there has been around 5 T-38's per class, 10 T-1's or more 2-4 T-44's and every so often there is a Helo. Go after your dream, but focus on school first, obtaining a slot second, preparing for UPT if you go, study your butt of in UPT, because the academic are what you can control. Remember the instructors are there to teach the military style of flying so take there advice and you will make it through. Attitude is key to making it in UPT.
Best Wishes
Thumper
Just curious what someone's thoughts are.
I crunched #'s the other night and in the event that I don't get picked up for OTS this summer I have been accepted at grad school so that I can do ROTC as a back up.
Here is what I'm looking at, I have a pilot score of 79 with 212 hours with PPL and Instrument that gives me a PCSM of 80. My GPA will be whatever I make for the fall, since I will be taking 2 grad classes and AS300 and LLAB, I hope to pull a 4.0. I'm currently running a 430 pretty consistently on my PFT. Since I will categorize for pilot prior to attending FT, my FT score will be a 5 (the lowest you can get) during the initial pilot categorization.
So I would say I'm pretty competitive, however there are 25 people in my class, and 7 will be applying for pilot. One other cadet has his PPL, and the rest are lower on PFT and other scores. I'm 26 yrs. old, and I'm serious about this, so I would have to say that my involvement will be pretty high, but my curiosity is what is everyone's opinion of what the commander ranking will reflect due to the fact that I will only have a semester and a month or so before the commander ranking is submitted. Is it possible to get a high ranking in one semester's time? And finally what would your honest opinion of me getting a slot be (not that it really counts)? And am I most likely to get a slot in the supplimental boards after I attend FT? And does my commander ranking change after FT for the supplemental board if I have to go up on that board?
Sorry for the long post.
I crunched #'s the other night and in the event that I don't get picked up for OTS this summer I have been accepted at grad school so that I can do ROTC as a back up.
Here is what I'm looking at, I have a pilot score of 79 with 212 hours with PPL and Instrument that gives me a PCSM of 80. My GPA will be whatever I make for the fall, since I will be taking 2 grad classes and AS300 and LLAB, I hope to pull a 4.0. I'm currently running a 430 pretty consistently on my PFT. Since I will categorize for pilot prior to attending FT, my FT score will be a 5 (the lowest you can get) during the initial pilot categorization.
So I would say I'm pretty competitive, however there are 25 people in my class, and 7 will be applying for pilot. One other cadet has his PPL, and the rest are lower on PFT and other scores. I'm 26 yrs. old, and I'm serious about this, so I would have to say that my involvement will be pretty high, but my curiosity is what is everyone's opinion of what the commander ranking will reflect due to the fact that I will only have a semester and a month or so before the commander ranking is submitted. Is it possible to get a high ranking in one semester's time? And finally what would your honest opinion of me getting a slot be (not that it really counts)? And am I most likely to get a slot in the supplimental boards after I attend FT? And does my commander ranking change after FT for the supplemental board if I have to go up on that board?
Sorry for the long post.
Steeler Fan
Here we go Steelers!
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Definite UPT avenues
The only two guarenteed ways to go to UPT...
1. Hired by a Guard/Reserve unit (Visit the Unit ALOT, have a relative in the unit, save the Wing Commander's life, etc)
2. Get selected for UPT/Pilot Slot via OTS ( www.airforce.com 1-800-423-USAF)
Academy is pretty likely, but not definite
I was ROTC, and it's the 1st group cancelled (just ask some guys about 1991)
The only two guarenteed ways to go to UPT...
1. Hired by a Guard/Reserve unit (Visit the Unit ALOT, have a relative in the unit, save the Wing Commander's life, etc)
2. Get selected for UPT/Pilot Slot via OTS ( www.airforce.com 1-800-423-USAF)
Academy is pretty likely, but not definite
I was ROTC, and it's the 1st group cancelled (just ask some guys about 1991)
HueyPilot
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- 207
UPT Info
The number who wash out of UPT seems to be directly proportional to the number of pilots the Air Force needs. If there is a perceived "shortage", they tend to lean towards the "Santa Claus" side and let some weak students slide. If they are cutting pilots, then they turn into Harda$$es.
When I went through in 2000, it was leaning slightly Santa Clausish. Our class didn't do too bad, but some other classes lost a few more people. Our class specifically had 1 student SIE in Tweets. She went off and got married one weekend -to an already rated pilot- and decided to be a wife and not a pilot...bad choice in my view since 20 years from now she'll be kicking herself in the arse once her husband leaves her for a 20-something flight attendant.
We had six wash back a couple of classes. Two were washed back at the very get-go for being overweight. One was washed back because he had so many 89 rides (elimination rides) that he got behind the curiculmn in Tweets and couldn't track-select with us.
Another also washed back in Tweets because she had bad luck with weather and broken airplanes. Another washed back in T-1s due to weather, and one guy washed back many classes after a serious knee injury playing basketball (required surgery).
But aside from the one SIE, everyone made it at some point.
But other classes were more typical. From what I knew of them, most classes experienced 1-2 SIEs, a couple of eliminations from poor flying, and maybe one or two eliminated for being airsick or some other problem (ie officership, "manifestation of apprehension" -ie afraid to fly-, etc).
So a normal class will start with 25-30 students, and graduate about 80-90% of the bunch.
Don't be worried about washing out of UPT. To be completely honest, I doubt it will turn into a "Harda$$" attitude for some time, since there is still a strong need for pilots. The people I knew of that were eliminated for flying problems really did suck...bad. They were often about 10 miles behind the jet, couldn't land it without putting the wheel struts through the top of the wings, or froze with drool coming from their mouths when they had to make a decision. IMHO, they would probably make pretty marginal Cessna pilots, so no surprise they couldn't handle a Tweet, Talon or Jayhawk.
In this day and age, the instructors will often go to great lengths to get you through a tough patch in your UPT career...IF you demonstrate you're giving 100%. Suck at flying AND act lazy...that's a ticket for your IPs and Flight Commander to decide not to have any sympathy for you. Be the "eager student", and they'll bend over backwards to help you as much as they can.
As for track select, an "average class" will generally have 5-6 active duty T-38 slots, 9-11 T-1 slots, 1-2 T-44 slots, and 1 UH-1 slot. Some classes have more, some have less of each. I saw one class where they had 2 UH-1 slots and no T-44 slots, and other variations. But they typically don't vary much either way on those numbers I gave above.
Hint: If you want a T-38, but think you're not good enough to get one, DO NOT put something else down as your #1 choice. There will always be a few students that will turn down the T-38 and go do something else, thus maybe creating the opportunity for you to get the coveted slot. In my class, there were two of us that didn't want T-38s, and we decided to go fly T-1s. A couple of guys who were worried to death about getting a T-38, because they knew there were on the fence, got their dream choice because we didn't want it. And one of those guys ALMOST put T-1 down as his #1 choice because he was sure he wouldn't get Talons.
Good luck in UPT.
The number who wash out of UPT seems to be directly proportional to the number of pilots the Air Force needs. If there is a perceived "shortage", they tend to lean towards the "Santa Claus" side and let some weak students slide. If they are cutting pilots, then they turn into Harda$$es.
When I went through in 2000, it was leaning slightly Santa Clausish. Our class didn't do too bad, but some other classes lost a few more people. Our class specifically had 1 student SIE in Tweets. She went off and got married one weekend -to an already rated pilot- and decided to be a wife and not a pilot...bad choice in my view since 20 years from now she'll be kicking herself in the arse once her husband leaves her for a 20-something flight attendant.
We had six wash back a couple of classes. Two were washed back at the very get-go for being overweight. One was washed back because he had so many 89 rides (elimination rides) that he got behind the curiculmn in Tweets and couldn't track-select with us.
Another also washed back in Tweets because she had bad luck with weather and broken airplanes. Another washed back in T-1s due to weather, and one guy washed back many classes after a serious knee injury playing basketball (required surgery).
But aside from the one SIE, everyone made it at some point.
But other classes were more typical. From what I knew of them, most classes experienced 1-2 SIEs, a couple of eliminations from poor flying, and maybe one or two eliminated for being airsick or some other problem (ie officership, "manifestation of apprehension" -ie afraid to fly-, etc).
So a normal class will start with 25-30 students, and graduate about 80-90% of the bunch.
Don't be worried about washing out of UPT. To be completely honest, I doubt it will turn into a "Harda$$" attitude for some time, since there is still a strong need for pilots. The people I knew of that were eliminated for flying problems really did suck...bad. They were often about 10 miles behind the jet, couldn't land it without putting the wheel struts through the top of the wings, or froze with drool coming from their mouths when they had to make a decision. IMHO, they would probably make pretty marginal Cessna pilots, so no surprise they couldn't handle a Tweet, Talon or Jayhawk.
In this day and age, the instructors will often go to great lengths to get you through a tough patch in your UPT career...IF you demonstrate you're giving 100%. Suck at flying AND act lazy...that's a ticket for your IPs and Flight Commander to decide not to have any sympathy for you. Be the "eager student", and they'll bend over backwards to help you as much as they can.
As for track select, an "average class" will generally have 5-6 active duty T-38 slots, 9-11 T-1 slots, 1-2 T-44 slots, and 1 UH-1 slot. Some classes have more, some have less of each. I saw one class where they had 2 UH-1 slots and no T-44 slots, and other variations. But they typically don't vary much either way on those numbers I gave above.
Hint: If you want a T-38, but think you're not good enough to get one, DO NOT put something else down as your #1 choice. There will always be a few students that will turn down the T-38 and go do something else, thus maybe creating the opportunity for you to get the coveted slot. In my class, there were two of us that didn't want T-38s, and we decided to go fly T-1s. A couple of guys who were worried to death about getting a T-38, because they knew there were on the fence, got their dream choice because we didn't want it. And one of those guys ALMOST put T-1 down as his #1 choice because he was sure he wouldn't get Talons.
Good luck in UPT.
Yahtzee
Season Ticket Holder
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- Apr 21, 2002
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- 301
Try the guard or reserve first
Ghost,
I was in a boat similiar to your's in 1988. I was six months from graduating at UGA and decided I wanted to fly. I had been co-oping with IBM for the past two years and watching various planes flying near the IBM complex near Dobbins ARB.
I made an appointment with the Asst PAS(an 0-4) who later asked me to come back to see the PAS (an 0-6 and former F-4 GIB & 5 year POW from Vietnam). When I spoke with the 0-6, I simply told him the truth. He asked me a few questions as we chatted for about 15 minutes. My future was in his hands. A few weeks later, I took the AFOQT then went to the six week Field Training (FT) camp. In the fall of 1988, I had a pilot slot. I had no flight time, but a good GPA, an Eagle Scout and had worked for IBM for nearly two years. The Colonel took a chance on me, and I'm very thankful.
I was commissioned in June of 1990. But like Steeler Fan said, in 1991 everything changed. In March of 1991, there were 350 ROTC grads with UPT slots still waiting to go to UPT. The AF cancelled 320 of the remaining 350 slots.... only 30 of the remaining folks were allowed to go to UPT in FY91. The rest of us were asked to resign our commissioned or pick a different career field. Some of us went back to UPT three to four years later after spending time in various career fields. Some folks just called it quits.
If I were in your shoes, I would seriously consider the Reserve or Guard first, then OTS, then ROTC has a last choice. I've been there, done that, all except the OTS part. ROTC is about the last place you will find a real pilot these days. In the past decade, the leadership positions (the PAS) at ROTC detachments have been sieged by non-pilots and most officers who aren't pilots will not understand you desire to be a pilot...that's unfortunate. Trust me, it's different when your PAS was Lance Sijan's best friend. If you don't know who Lance Sijan is pick up a copy of "Into the Mouth of the Cat" by Malcomb McConnell.
There's a lot of info on this board about guard and reserve slots and how to apply. Be extremly careful of AF recruiters...most will try to get you to sign up for a NAV slot and tell you how you can compete for a UPT slot. If you want to be a pilot, don't sign up as a Nav. Ask the Navs on this board about that....I have many friends who were Navs...of the ones who did make it to UPT, most did so after spending eight years as a Nav.
Your flight time and pilot score make you very competitive for pilot slot in the Guard or Reserve.
Yahtz
ghost_ttu said:
Ghost,
I was in a boat similiar to your's in 1988. I was six months from graduating at UGA and decided I wanted to fly. I had been co-oping with IBM for the past two years and watching various planes flying near the IBM complex near Dobbins ARB.
I made an appointment with the Asst PAS(an 0-4) who later asked me to come back to see the PAS (an 0-6 and former F-4 GIB & 5 year POW from Vietnam). When I spoke with the 0-6, I simply told him the truth. He asked me a few questions as we chatted for about 15 minutes. My future was in his hands. A few weeks later, I took the AFOQT then went to the six week Field Training (FT) camp. In the fall of 1988, I had a pilot slot. I had no flight time, but a good GPA, an Eagle Scout and had worked for IBM for nearly two years. The Colonel took a chance on me, and I'm very thankful.
I was commissioned in June of 1990. But like Steeler Fan said, in 1991 everything changed. In March of 1991, there were 350 ROTC grads with UPT slots still waiting to go to UPT. The AF cancelled 320 of the remaining 350 slots.... only 30 of the remaining folks were allowed to go to UPT in FY91. The rest of us were asked to resign our commissioned or pick a different career field. Some of us went back to UPT three to four years later after spending time in various career fields. Some folks just called it quits.
If I were in your shoes, I would seriously consider the Reserve or Guard first, then OTS, then ROTC has a last choice. I've been there, done that, all except the OTS part. ROTC is about the last place you will find a real pilot these days. In the past decade, the leadership positions (the PAS) at ROTC detachments have been sieged by non-pilots and most officers who aren't pilots will not understand you desire to be a pilot...that's unfortunate. Trust me, it's different when your PAS was Lance Sijan's best friend. If you don't know who Lance Sijan is pick up a copy of "Into the Mouth of the Cat" by Malcomb McConnell.
There's a lot of info on this board about guard and reserve slots and how to apply. Be extremly careful of AF recruiters...most will try to get you to sign up for a NAV slot and tell you how you can compete for a UPT slot. If you want to be a pilot, don't sign up as a Nav. Ask the Navs on this board about that....I have many friends who were Navs...of the ones who did make it to UPT, most did so after spending eight years as a Nav.
Your flight time and pilot score make you very competitive for pilot slot in the Guard or Reserve.
Yahtz
Last edited:
talondriver
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Re: UPT Info
Wow! I must have missed that briefing...and I've been in AETC for over eight years (active and reserve)!
The reason it's hard to wash people out (and we've tried) is because the wing leadership has other things to factor in (i.e race/sex/daddy a general) before they eliminate.
We give them a documented case for elimination and they look for holes (sts) to justify reinstatement like bad training practices(and race/sex/daddy a general).
We recently eliminated a guard guy (yes...a guard guy!!!)...and he had a great attitude during training, but not so great hands.
We (as IPs) factor in things like--do we want weak pilots in our Bros formations over Iraq and other places? It's not just about getting "your" wings.
HueyPilot said:
Wow! I must have missed that briefing...and I've been in AETC for over eight years (active and reserve)!
The reason it's hard to wash people out (and we've tried) is because the wing leadership has other things to factor in (i.e race/sex/daddy a general) before they eliminate.
We give them a documented case for elimination and they look for holes (sts) to justify reinstatement like bad training practices(and race/sex/daddy a general).
We recently eliminated a guard guy (yes...a guard guy!!!)...and he had a great attitude during training, but not so great hands.
We (as IPs) factor in things like--do we want weak pilots in our Bros formations over Iraq and other places? It's not just about getting "your" wings.
Spur
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Yes, ANG and AFRes students going to fighters must finish in the top 1/2 of their class in primary to go to T-38s. If they are in the bottom half, however, their unit usually works pretty hard to find a heavy unit that will take them so they can continue with UPT, but that is not guaranteed.
talondriver
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Most guard/reserve students are top-notch. Once in awhile we'll get a "weak swimmer"...usually the prior-enlisted guard guys with minimal civilian flying time. If the weak student has previous flight time, the problem is usually conforming to military flying.
Another step in the process with guard/reserve students is updating the unit with his/her progress...so the unit knows if trouble is looming. I've seen units bend over backwards to help the individual. I've also seen a unit leave their guy out in the cold. That situation was due to a very bad attitude during training.
Another step in the process with guard/reserve students is updating the unit with his/her progress...so the unit knows if trouble is looming. I've seen units bend over backwards to help the individual. I've also seen a unit leave their guy out in the cold. That situation was due to a very bad attitude during training.
As a guard guy at UPT I can personally tell you that ATTITUDE is everything. The IP's will teach you how to fly the way they want you to, but you have to be willing to listen.
Prior flight time helps for about the first week of Tweets. After that it's anybodys game.
I had a lot of instrument time and got hammered during the Instrument block in Tweets because it took a long time to kick bad habbits. After the Mid term report, that you have with your flight commander, I was in the middle third. Which meant I was on the bubble of going to a 38, which is what my unit requires. When I started Formation, I had no choice but to do it their way because I didn't know any other way. Civilians don't fly form. By the end of the program I was on top (so to speak) and was told during the end of phase feedback session that I would have gotten one of the four T-38's that were in the track had I been an active duty stud.
If you're older like me, it's that much harder to kick those bad civilian habits. But you have to do it and the IP's will help, IF you show that you'r trying. Otherwise they will turn the screws down on you and make your life hell. I've seen it happen to buddys I got commissioned with...they're gone.
The best way to get through is to keep your mouth shut and let your flying talk for you. If your good...they'll know, if your bad...they'll know...but if you have an attitude problem...they won't care.
Good Luck
Prior flight time helps for about the first week of Tweets. After that it's anybodys game.
I had a lot of instrument time and got hammered during the Instrument block in Tweets because it took a long time to kick bad habbits. After the Mid term report, that you have with your flight commander, I was in the middle third. Which meant I was on the bubble of going to a 38, which is what my unit requires. When I started Formation, I had no choice but to do it their way because I didn't know any other way. Civilians don't fly form. By the end of the program I was on top (so to speak) and was told during the end of phase feedback session that I would have gotten one of the four T-38's that were in the track had I been an active duty stud.
If you're older like me, it's that much harder to kick those bad civilian habits. But you have to do it and the IP's will help, IF you show that you'r trying. Otherwise they will turn the screws down on you and make your life hell. I've seen it happen to buddys I got commissioned with...they're gone.
The best way to get through is to keep your mouth shut and let your flying talk for you. If your good...they'll know, if your bad...they'll know...but if you have an attitude problem...they won't care.
Good Luck
talondriver
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