UPS and FedEx

[JJthejetplane]

What is a typical schedule for pilots at these airlines? Are you gone three to four days at a time like at a lot of airlines? Any info about how the quality of life is at either place will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[FreightNazi]

The ultimate quality of life is having UPS make $4 BILLION a year in profits!

 

[Big Beer Belly]

In my experience "quality of life" at UPS is a real mixed bag. Most new-hire pilots will be blown away at the HUGE chasm between management and hourly labor here. The management philosophy is a throwback to turn of the century. (Think the opposite of SWA and you won't be disappointed.) Remember these are just my opinions, based on over a decade of working here and I'm sure others would disagree with me. I have no personal animosity for UPS ... the situation here is what it is ...

What does this translate into for the common line pilot? For starters, you will VERY QUICKLY get the message the company neither desires nor values your input on anything. You are simply paid to move that jet from A to B and leave the running of the company to management. It's important to understand UPS is primarily a trucking company and is run by truckers. On the bright side there are many competent, forward-thinking management pilots on the airline operational side ... however, they lack any significant power or authority to positively effect change ... i.e., the truckers still run the airline.

Expect the company to INTENTIONALLY VIOLATE the labor agreement when it suits them (company settled my last grievance admitting an intentional violation) and force you to "fly it and grieve it" or be threatened with dismissal (personally experienced this one). I personally know quite a few pilots who have been fired (all re-hired thanks to our union) for "stealing cake" (literally!), "being activated" with their military unit, "refusing to operate" a flight with inoperative seat belts (the FAA had a field day with this one as you can imagine) etc... Last I checked we have over 500 grievances so far this year. What can I say about this? Besides it being EXTREMELY frustrating it is tedious to build an iron-clad case against the company and sue or arbitrate that they are intentionally violating the accords of the Railway Labor Act.

As far as scheduling ... no surprise here that back side of the clock ops are fatiguing, evidence points to unhealthy, and challenging. The company acknowledges all of the above but continues to produce circadium non-compliant schedules (nice way of saying they flip you from nights to days and back to nights all in the same week). The bottom line is they want the boxes moved and at the least possible cost, pilot health and safety to a large extent (at least as far as schedules) fall off the priority radar. On this point I think you will find near unanimous agreement in the pilot ranks.

In the end each guy tries to carve out some bearable schedule that best suits his/her situation (commuter/non-commuter, day vs night, domestic vs intl, line vs reserve, etc...) To be fair, I have found working reserve to be quite bearable overall. The nature of the business necessitates a large reserve component to provide operational flexibilty. It is a little like building a church large enough to accomodate the Easter Sunday service, but not filled to capacity the rest of the year. UPS must have sufficient reserves and spare aircraft daily in case of a worst case scenario of wx, jets out due to mx, volume overages at some gateways, etc... Most of the time the church is not filled to capacity at UPS (which allows for the greatest flexibility) and that is the way they like it. Thankfully, UPS is big enough and financially strong enough to provide the "big church" ... meaning we reserves sit in the pews waiting for the phone to ring ...and frequently the phone will not ring for days.

Perhaps the largest "quality of life" plus at UPS is stability (as much as one can say in this industry). Barring unforseen disaster, UPS is large, extremely profitable, and financially very sound. The future looks equally promising for air cargo worldwide and UPS's move into China, logistics, and now heavy air freight.

Hope this helps someone considering UPS as a career. In the end I have no choice but to presently accept the above concerns and support our union and its attempt to negotiate a substantially improved next contract. Results of recent pilot union elections strongly suggest the vast majority are solidly unified to correct a number of glaring inadequacies in our current labor agreement.

 

[Clyde]

Life at UPS

What is a typical schedule for pilots at these airlines? Are you gone three to four days at a time like at a lot of airlines? Any info about how the quality of life is at either place will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

If you are junior and international:
Typically on reserve. 16 days on 12 days off. Once a lineholder, plan on anywhere between 10 and 12 days on. More senior reserve, 7 or 8 on and 7 or 8 off. Some fleets have 4 on 4 off reserve. For SO's and FO's.

If you are junior and domestic:
Probably going to be a lineholder. Week on/Week off. Sometimes 3 weeks in a row of 4 days on and 3 days off followed by 7 days off. Expect to see a turn in the middle of one or more of your 7 day off periods.

The above is just a rough sampling, but seems to be pretty common lately. Of course, each fleet is going to be a little different, as well as the seat and seniority.

It is rare to find schedules here that mirror what you might expect to find at a passenger carrier.

 

[Clyde]

Big Beer Belly hit the nail right on the head. It's a different mentality here than at a pax carrier. However, if you are looking for someplace to work until retirement, this is probably one of the few airlines that will be here for you.

This is a trucking company, and one must realize that from day one. If you come here thinking you can make a change in the company, you will be disappointed. Like BBBelly said, we are expected to fly the airplane from A to B, and the running of the company is left to the managers. On the bright side, even though there is a trucking mentality here, somehow the company is very successful and has been around for almost 100 years. You may find yourself filing grievances throughout your career, but that is just part of the game. All in all this is a very good place to work. The guys out on the line are the best I've been around and the managers I've flown with have all been very good so far.

Like anywhere else, we're not perfect. But we're profitable.

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

Big Beer Belly,

Dito from me too, you nailed it. I would also add that I do see alot of mis-management at the management level and yet in still UPS makes the profit... We all have experienced the wasteing thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars to get something done while missing a simple solution (the big picture)... I too am grateful to be here but have always been looking over the horizon to the day where I can come to work and there is no black cloud hanging over my head (9/11, furlough, contract, its always been something since Ive been here) Right seat and a firm schedule is a good place to start for me...

As far as schedules, Reserve for FE's use to be the gig to have, now however, IMHO, we are extreemly short of FE's (the company thinks were properly staffed...LOL) and Im working usually 14-15 out of my 16 days on... I guess its payback time for me...

BBDC8

 

[Big Beer Belly]

TCAS, Escape Slides, Cargo Fire Extinguishers ... UPS Against All Of Them

In the greater context of "quality of life" ... as in I want to maintain mine for as long as I can ... here's some food for thought:

Did you know UPS fought long and hard (lobbied congress, ATA, FAA) against TCAS being required on large cargo aircraft? Unfortunately so. They were initially successful in having large cargo aircraft EXEMPTED from the requirement to have TCAS installed (delayed for many years) by convincing congress when a cargo aircraft was involved in a midair collision, "no significant loss of life" resulted. That's right folks ... "no significant loss of life". Never mind the the burning debris falling on your towns, schools, neighborhoods, and hospitals ... but to have your employer classify your contribution, professional skills and your life as "not significant" is revealing in and of itself. It ultimately took the IPA (our pilot's union) suing the FAA to force TCAS to be installed on all UPS aircraft. I've been told (been unable to verify) UPS is the only 757/767 customer to NOT have TCAS installed from the factory. Interesting to note FedEx VOLUNTARILY equipped all their aircraft with TCAS years before being required!

How about escape slides? UPS successfully lobbied the FAA to exempt them from the requirement for escape slides on many of their fleet types (citing unnecessary and overly burdensome maintenance costs). Yep, that's right ... to evacuate from one of 75 757's or 32 767's you have to repel down a rope after crawling out a cockpit window and avoiding the burning hot probes. Recent modifications (at least to the 757, 767 from factory) allow you the option to jump out the cockpit door using an "inertia reel" (a wound metal tape which slows your descent) provided all the main gear are intact and extended.

UPS again successfully lobbied the FAA to remove the passenger required cargo fire extinguishing bottles ... again citing burdensome and unnecessary maintenance costs (this from a company posting $3 BILLION+ in annual PROFITS!) ... instead we are left with a fire SUPPRESSION capability only ... theoretically we depressurize to 25k and SLOWLY starve the fire of oxygen. Never mind the obvious that we really have no idea what's in the boxes we carry (we rely and trust the shipper to identify all hazardous material). Tell that to the FedEx DC-10 crew that barely landed in Stewart, NY a few years back before the jet was engulfed in fire and completely destroyed (caused by undeclared hazardous material). Oh, did I mention we operate these aircraft on numerous ETOPS routes with 3 hours flight time to the nearest suitable alternate? In my opinion, the removal of halon extinguishing cargo bottles (all to save on maintenance costs) is borderline criminal. How the FAA ever bought off on this is absolutely beyond me ... except to say UPS has one of the nation's largest PAC's ... and one can only wonder if that had any influence???

Folks, these are the facts. Draw whatever conclusions you wish. I believe each one of us wants to work for and believe they are on the "A-Team". For my first 4 or 5 years here I was an absolute cheerleader for UPS and would scoff silently at the senior guys pointing out things such as the above. I would quietly label them malcontents (to myself) and remind myself how much better this was than the military. Given enough time and exposure to the values UPS demonstrates, it has been my experience that most pilots here eventually (and with just cause in my opinion) become jaded in their enthusiasm for the company. Make no mistake though, there are a great bunch of pilots flying professionally and safely day in and day out in spite of the trying circumstances we work under here (perhaps it is no different at other airlines). I challenge anyone to find a more highly skilled, affable cadre of pilots to share their professional lives with anywhere in the industry.

 

[freightdogfred]

So how do you admittedly staunch union-types feel about integrating the Emery Worldwide seniority list with your own??? You've purchased their hub, does their scope & merger clause sit ok with you???

After all, they are staunch dues-paying union men as well...(ALPA no less)

What say ye, Union brethren??? Some of the posts on your union webboard have been less than hospitable.

 

[Clyde]

So how do you admittedly staunch union-types feel about integrating the Emery Worldwide seniority list with your own??? You've purchased their hub, does their scope & merger clause sit ok with you???

After all, they are staunch dues-paying union men as well...(ALPA no less)

What say ye, Union brethren??? Some of the posts on your union webboard have been less than hospitable.

From what I have been told, Emery Worldwide as an airline ceases to exist, so the seniority list integration is not even an issue. How can we integrate a seniority list from an airline that has not been operating for almost two years?

Now, I am, as you say, a staunch union-type pilot. However, I have a strong opinion on how seniority lists are handled. In my opinion, if this were even an issue, I would want to see ANY outside seniority list stapled right to the bottom.

I don't like to see people out of work, but I don't want anybody getting ahead of me or any of my fellow IPA pilots because of a "merger". Before the flaming starts, ask yourself this: would you rather be stapled at the bottom of someone else's seniority list or at home waiting for the unemployment check to arrive?

I chose to come here, worked hard to get an interview, and I made it. If someone from the old EWA or anywhere else wants to work here, that's great. However, you need to get in line and interview just like everybody else. One attitude I absolutely cannot stand is when someone thinks they "deserve" a position because of a buyout/merger/purchase and they think that their date of hire at the former company gives them the right to bypass a lot of people through the backdoor.

FreightdogFred, the above paragraph was not directed at you personally, it's a generalization of how I feel about this topic, which I see as a touchy issue. The question was asked about how we feel, and I answered it, speaking of course for myself and myself only.

 

[73belair]

Well he!! that is eye opening for UPS... How about FedEx?

 

[klhoard]

Hey, it's all Chocolate rivers and Raspberry skies over here. . . .

 

[TonyC]

Hey, it's all Chocolate rivers and Raspberry skies over here. . . .

FedEx didn't want to put the hardened doors in after 9/11, sought exemptions - - they did not meet the deadline.

FedEx was in no big hurry to equip the 727's with TCAS. Keith, do you know if all the 727's have it yet?

 

[USNFDX]

I'm pretty sure all the 727s have TCAS, but I don't all the DC10s do.....

 

[Rhoid]

So how do you admittedly staunch union-types feel about integrating the Emery Worldwide seniority list with your own??? You've purchased their hub, does their scope & merger clause sit ok with you???

After all, they are staunch dues-paying union men as well...(ALPA no less)

What say ye, Union brethren??? Some of the posts on your union webboard have been less than hospitable.

Fred, your profile alone speaks volumes as to why the UPS pilot group would not want to integrate the FORMER Emery pilots on their list. You state that you KNOWINGLY flew overweight and poorly maintained aircraft. Why did you KNOWINGLY do that? Your FORMER airline was grounded by the FAA for poor maintenace and the pilots knew about it and continued to fly the planes in that condition until the Feds finally pulled the plug on you. You and your FORMER pilot group are/were totally unprofessional and not worthy of a job at a reputable major airline anywhere.

I hear that CAT and Cappy are hiring.... Oh wait, you probably already work there!

 

[Falconjet]

Every 72 I've been in has had the TCAS, even the -100s, so I'm pretty sure the entire fleet has them now.

BBB: Welcome to the board and way to come out blasting! I must say that I like the way things are at FedEx a lot more than the way it seems things are over at UPS based on your posts.

Good luck with the new contract, hopefully both of our contracts will be renewed soon.

FJ

 

[klhoard]

. . .<snip>. . .FedEx was in no big hurry to equip the 727's with TCAS. Keith, do you know if all the 727's have it yet?

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I think they all do, however I haven't flown the Trainer Jet in four months. I've been loving life flying the MD-10 all over the lower 48 this month!!
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[heavyjetpilot]

<<Now, I am, as you say, a staunch union-type pilot. However, I have a strong opinion on how seniority lists are handled. In my opinion, if this were even an issue, I would want to see ANY outside seniority list stapled right to the bottom.

I don't like to see people out of work, but I don't want anybody getting ahead of me or any of my fellow IPA pilots because of a "merger". Before the flaming starts, ask yourself this: would you rather be stapled at the bottom of someone else's seniority list or at home waiting for the unemployment check to arrive? >>

Clyde,
I think this is the best post I have read in awhile on here. While I do feel for anyone who is without a job or seriously looking but the facts are the facts. It's better to be employeed and on the bottom than the alternative. There certainly could be worse things to happen.
Cheers,
CW
A-300 Capt.

 

[Rhoid]

Hey Clyde, will you give me a recommendation at UPS? I'd really love to get on with them.

 

[Clyde]

Hey Clyde, will you give me a recommendation at UPS? I'd really love to get on with them.

PM me, we'll chat.

 

[Clyde]

<<Now, I am, as you say, a staunch union-type pilot. However, I have a strong opinion on how seniority lists are handled. In my opinion, if this were even an issue, I would want to see ANY outside seniority list stapled right to the bottom.

I don't like to see people out of work, but I don't want anybody getting ahead of me or any of my fellow IPA pilots because of a "merger". Before the flaming starts, ask yourself this: would you rather be stapled at the bottom of someone else's seniority list or at home waiting for the unemployment check to arrive? >>

Clyde,
I think this is the best post I have read in awhile on here. While I do feel for anyone who is without a job or seriously looking but the facts are the facts. It's better to be employeed and on the bottom than the alternative. There certainly could be worse things to happen.
Cheers,
CW
A-300 Capt.

Thanks A-300. I know that post may upset some, but that is exactly how I feel.