Upgrade times

[skydiverdriver]

I don't think I'll ever fly on a Mesa 1900 again!!

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Why? Prior to 9-11, upgrade on the Brasilias and ATRs at COEX was less than a year. We had no problems with pilots that upgraded quick. As one of my fellow Beech drivers used to say, "A six year old girl retard could fly a 1900." It's pretty easy.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Not with me on it, she can't. Judgement takes a bit longer to learn than that, especially when a lot of your pilot's previous employment was as a flight instructor. Nothing against those guys, but I'm glad my airline requires 3000 hours total and 500 company time to upgrade. I think that should be an FAR.

 

[jetdriven]

i had a freind with 2100TT and 700ME upgrade to captain on the 1900 last summer with 80 hours in the beech at mesa. This was also the only 121 or turbine time he had. Ahhh.. the good old days..

 

[1900laker]

Skydiverdriver wrote:

. Nothing against those guys, but I'm glad my airline requires 3000 hours total and 500 company time to upgrade. I think that should be an FAR.

We'll you probably need to count out any operators flying 1900's in the US right now then. Maybe a lot of brasillia operators too. By the way, have you sat in a left seat of a 1900, brasillia, or any commercial aircraft in a 121 operation? Just curious to see what your personal experience is on this?

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

By the way, have you sat in a left seat of a 1900, brasillia, or any commercial aircraft in a 121 operation? Just curious to see what your personal experience is on this?

I seriously doubt he has been in the left seat. Just because you don't have 3000 TT doesn't mean you aren't a safe pilot. I upgraded on the ERJ with 2600 hours, and 600 time in type. The upgrade process went flawlessly, as it did with all my classmates. Maybe one of the twelve had over 3000 hours. Haven't seen an accident (or incident) out of any of them. That may be your company policy, but it doesn't need to be an FAR. Got a friend of mine at Lakes who upgraded right at 1500 hours when they were real short of captains and he's doing great. Don't be too quick to judge other airlines' policies.

 

[1900laker]

Hey Clapper,

Yeah, I did the same thing while I was at Lakes. In fact, thats why I went to Lakes in the first place; for the quick upgrade. I feel that the 400 or so hours that I flew in the right seat of an airplane with no autopilot, flying in all weather, and mountains, with an airline that is known for its extremely rigid training (or evaluation) standards was enough in my case to upgrade at 1500. But it varies person to person. Considering that there are many military pilots out there with less than 1500 flying multi-crewed airplanes that are far more sophisticated machines, is proof that it can be done. Just because one airline sets its policies that way does not mean all should. It depends on many factors, such as the type of aircraft, the general background of the pilot, the type of operation, etc.

And your perspective changes greatly once you have flown in that left seat as well.

I've never flown an RJ, so I wouldn't be able to comment on whether an individual is ready for upgrade on one at ATP minimums.

 

[scouts out!]

Ref: shegavemeclap

A monkey can be trained to fly an aircraft however it does take time to gain good judgement, which is learned by previous bad judgement. I am happy for your friend who upgraded with 1500 hours but that does mean he is something great and free of error, nor is a pilot over 3000hrs or 30,000hrs for that matter. However 1500 hrs in my opinion is not much experience and the risk are high. Don't get over confident and become a statistic. I have seen a couple people crash the 1900 with well over 3000 in type. Companies often try to fill the seats and don't always make sure the person they fill the seat with is completely ready. Anyone can train to pass a checkride, some just need more time than others. Don't take this as a cut on low time pilots rather as a friendly warning not to become over confident. I to was a low time pilot who upgraded in an aircraft before I was completely ready and to make matters worse I was in an area (Alaska) that has no time for inexperience. I have lost 14 friends and more than half was confident nothing would ever happen to them. I strongly feel companies should increase their upgrade requirements and not just slide by with the bare requirements. Some people are ready for a quick upgrade but not all.

 

[scouts out!]

PS

I do recall a MESA EMB145 pilot (low time 2200hrs) that while on approach into ROA stalled the aircraft onto the runway, causing SUBSTANTIAL damage to the aircraft, they did not report it. The next morning the next low time mesa crew struck the tail on landing when mx inspected the aircraft they found the rest of the damage that was created the prior day. The aircraft had the stick shaker and pusher activate above the runway end result "Bad judgement impacting the runway very hard". Thankfully the runway and not the mountains around ROA. Some people can make the upgrade at ATP mins but are we in a business where we take chances with the lives of our customers? No. Career motivation sometimes makes people take steps their not always ready for and sometimes it will bite you hard. Be a professional and don't make your decisions based on selfish needs. It's not impossible to upgrade with 1500 hrs but use caution and dont preach how easy it is to upgrade whether it is in a C152, B1900 or a 747. The left seat is a lot of responsibility, carry it well.

 

[Cornelius]

Hey everybody, you forgot about Lakes and their upgrade time. Currently it is zero. But on the plus side, I heard they did recall a few people. Keep in mind Lakes started furloughing about 2 months before those terrorist bastards and the media messed everything up.

C-YA!!!

 

[ryjacks]

Skydiverdriver....
Speaking of FARs...Part 135 requires only 1200 hours to be a Captain and this is a whole different ball game...single pilot IFR. The Beech has two pilots. So if you want your 3000 hour FAR, good luck buddy.

Judgement takes time, but how much time??? Some people 1200 hours other 3000, but everyone is not the same. I personally think it would be difficult to say, "At 2,999 hours pilot John Doe can't make a decision, but at 3,000 he/she can be named Captain."

just my 2 cents.

 

[1900laker]

You're right,

It's not easy to fly in the left seat with that low of time. Here's to the thousands of pilots who overcame that difficulty and survived to go on to long, and safe careers. I find it interesting how the talk on this board makes it sound like the ATP minimums were written yesterday. We don't have a vast number of accidents each year caused by innexperience of low time captains. It just isn't happening. I think that the training (or evaluation) at most of the company's were 1500 is acceptable must be more stringent or something because there isn't a greater proportion of accidents or incidents over any other company in general. I don't advocate anyone upgrading until they are ready, no matter how many hours they have, and I find that there are a great many pilots who are professional enough to realize that in their personal cases, they feel the need for an additional 500-1000 hours before they are ready. Like I said, it depends on many different factors (individual, aircraft, operation, location, etc.) But a note of caution to all those new 1500 hour Captains out there, be extra vigilant, because you are still low on experience, and will often be seeing things for the first time from the left seat. Don't be intimidated to raise the B.S.flag if you need to when something doesn't look right just because you are a new, low time captain. That ultimate responsibility weighs just as much at 1500 as it does at 15000. Good luck and fly safe.

 

[ifly4food]

To build on what 1900Laker said, the companies that are putting 1500hr captains on the line have some of the hardest training programs out there. They aren't hust handing them 4 stripes and telling them to have fun.
At Lakes, the upgrade bust rate was close to 80% (first attempt) when I left. The "street captain" WASHOUT rate was around 60%. The trg dept took captain training very seriously and the only ones who saw the left seat on the line were the ones who knew their stuff. Any ex or current Laker will verify this.

Lakes accident rate exemplifies this. Considering how many low time crews they had (1500hr pic with a 300hr FO - happened a lot), the accident rate was incredibly low.

 

[scouts out!]

FAR's

FAR's also allow somebody to get their commercial license at 250 hours, would you want them flying your family around in solid IFR in the mountains at night time? Its legal per the FAR's, so does that mean its safe? Remember just because its legal doesn't mean its safe.

 

[skybuda]

The next morning the next low time mesa crew struck the tail on landing when mx inspected the aircraft they found the rest of the damage that was created the prior day.


Maybe you should know the facts before you spit crap out of your ass. The next crew wasnt low time and it was missed on the preflight and caught on the post flight. I know that you are perfect and would never miss anything. And when found it they wrote it up as a tail strike on rotation as would any other crew, since there landing was uneventfull.

I am in no way defenting the first crew since they were just plain stupid. But being low time should be any factor in writing anything up. As I can remember we all wrote things up on the good old 152 with maybe only 20 hours total time