Upgrade times

[SheGaveMeClap]

By the way, have you sat in a left seat of a 1900, brasillia, or any commercial aircraft in a 121 operation? Just curious to see what your personal experience is on this?

I seriously doubt he has been in the left seat. Just because you don't have 3000 TT doesn't mean you aren't a safe pilot. I upgraded on the ERJ with 2600 hours, and 600 time in type. The upgrade process went flawlessly, as it did with all my classmates. Maybe one of the twelve had over 3000 hours. Haven't seen an accident (or incident) out of any of them. That may be your company policy, but it doesn't need to be an FAR. Got a friend of mine at Lakes who upgraded right at 1500 hours when they were real short of captains and he's doing great. Don't be too quick to judge other airlines' policies.

 

[1900laker]

Hey Clapper,

Yeah, I did the same thing while I was at Lakes. In fact, thats why I went to Lakes in the first place; for the quick upgrade. I feel that the 400 or so hours that I flew in the right seat of an airplane with no autopilot, flying in all weather, and mountains, with an airline that is known for its extremely rigid training (or evaluation) standards was enough in my case to upgrade at 1500. But it varies person to person. Considering that there are many military pilots out there with less than 1500 flying multi-crewed airplanes that are far more sophisticated machines, is proof that it can be done. Just because one airline sets its policies that way does not mean all should. It depends on many factors, such as the type of aircraft, the general background of the pilot, the type of operation, etc.

And your perspective changes greatly once you have flown in that left seat as well.

I've never flown an RJ, so I wouldn't be able to comment on whether an individual is ready for upgrade on one at ATP minimums.

 

[scouts out!]

Ref: shegavemeclap

A monkey can be trained to fly an aircraft however it does take time to gain good judgement, which is learned by previous bad judgement. I am happy for your friend who upgraded with 1500 hours but that does mean he is something great and free of error, nor is a pilot over 3000hrs or 30,000hrs for that matter. However 1500 hrs in my opinion is not much experience and the risk are high. Don't get over confident and become a statistic. I have seen a couple people crash the 1900 with well over 3000 in type. Companies often try to fill the seats and don't always make sure the person they fill the seat with is completely ready. Anyone can train to pass a checkride, some just need more time than others. Don't take this as a cut on low time pilots rather as a friendly warning not to become over confident. I to was a low time pilot who upgraded in an aircraft before I was completely ready and to make matters worse I was in an area (Alaska) that has no time for inexperience. I have lost 14 friends and more than half was confident nothing would ever happen to them. I strongly feel companies should increase their upgrade requirements and not just slide by with the bare requirements. Some people are ready for a quick upgrade but not all.

 

[scouts out!]

PS

I do recall a MESA EMB145 pilot (low time 2200hrs) that while on approach into ROA stalled the aircraft onto the runway, causing SUBSTANTIAL damage to the aircraft, they did not report it. The next morning the next low time mesa crew struck the tail on landing when mx inspected the aircraft they found the rest of the damage that was created the prior day. The aircraft had the stick shaker and pusher activate above the runway end result "Bad judgement impacting the runway very hard". Thankfully the runway and not the mountains around ROA. Some people can make the upgrade at ATP mins but are we in a business where we take chances with the lives of our customers? No. Career motivation sometimes makes people take steps their not always ready for and sometimes it will bite you hard. Be a professional and don't make your decisions based on selfish needs. It's not impossible to upgrade with 1500 hrs but use caution and dont preach how easy it is to upgrade whether it is in a C152, B1900 or a 747. The left seat is a lot of responsibility, carry it well.

 

[Cornelius]

Hey everybody, you forgot about Lakes and their upgrade time. Currently it is zero. But on the plus side, I heard they did recall a few people. Keep in mind Lakes started furloughing about 2 months before those terrorist bastards and the media messed everything up.

C-YA!!!

 

[ryjacks]

Skydiverdriver....
Speaking of FARs...Part 135 requires only 1200 hours to be a Captain and this is a whole different ball game...single pilot IFR. The Beech has two pilots. So if you want your 3000 hour FAR, good luck buddy.

Judgement takes time, but how much time??? Some people 1200 hours other 3000, but everyone is not the same. I personally think it would be difficult to say, "At 2,999 hours pilot John Doe can't make a decision, but at 3,000 he/she can be named Captain."

just my 2 cents.

 

[1900laker]

You're right,

It's not easy to fly in the left seat with that low of time. Here's to the thousands of pilots who overcame that difficulty and survived to go on to long, and safe careers. I find it interesting how the talk on this board makes it sound like the ATP minimums were written yesterday. We don't have a vast number of accidents each year caused by innexperience of low time captains. It just isn't happening. I think that the training (or evaluation) at most of the company's were 1500 is acceptable must be more stringent or something because there isn't a greater proportion of accidents or incidents over any other company in general. I don't advocate anyone upgrading until they are ready, no matter how many hours they have, and I find that there are a great many pilots who are professional enough to realize that in their personal cases, they feel the need for an additional 500-1000 hours before they are ready. Like I said, it depends on many different factors (individual, aircraft, operation, location, etc.) But a note of caution to all those new 1500 hour Captains out there, be extra vigilant, because you are still low on experience, and will often be seeing things for the first time from the left seat. Don't be intimidated to raise the B.S.flag if you need to when something doesn't look right just because you are a new, low time captain. That ultimate responsibility weighs just as much at 1500 as it does at 15000. Good luck and fly safe.

 

[ifly4food]

To build on what 1900Laker said, the companies that are putting 1500hr captains on the line have some of the hardest training programs out there. They aren't hust handing them 4 stripes and telling them to have fun.
At Lakes, the upgrade bust rate was close to 80% (first attempt) when I left. The "street captain" WASHOUT rate was around 60%. The trg dept took captain training very seriously and the only ones who saw the left seat on the line were the ones who knew their stuff. Any ex or current Laker will verify this.

Lakes accident rate exemplifies this. Considering how many low time crews they had (1500hr pic with a 300hr FO - happened a lot), the accident rate was incredibly low.

 

[scouts out!]

FAR's

FAR's also allow somebody to get their commercial license at 250 hours, would you want them flying your family around in solid IFR in the mountains at night time? Its legal per the FAR's, so does that mean its safe? Remember just because its legal doesn't mean its safe.

 

[skybuda]

The next morning the next low time mesa crew struck the tail on landing when mx inspected the aircraft they found the rest of the damage that was created the prior day.


Maybe you should know the facts before you spit crap out of your ass. The next crew wasnt low time and it was missed on the preflight and caught on the post flight. I know that you are perfect and would never miss anything. And when found it they wrote it up as a tail strike on rotation as would any other crew, since there landing was uneventfull.

I am in no way defenting the first crew since they were just plain stupid. But being low time should be any factor in writing anything up. As I can remember we all wrote things up on the good old 152 with maybe only 20 hours total time

 

[TurboS7]

Being PIC is no big deal after you have done it a while. Getting called in to the office to justify a decision that you made is a big deal. Every decision that you make has to be made like it was in the court of law and you plan to defend it. The worse part is dealing with all the FA's and all the "no tolerance" bs, work rules and ground handling, gate agents and all the other painful stuff. Once your off the gate and in the air the job is great...

 

[scouts out!]

SKYBUDA

Low time to me is below 3000 hrs above that it is average up to 8000hrs and above 8000 is high time thats my perception. The crew should not have missed the damage to the aircraft but they did and many times people have a tendancy to slack on their walk arounds. Im not perfect but I routinely see mesa screw things up by being stupid and mesa has a lot of low time cocky guys like yourself who feel they are the next best thing to sliced bread. My info came from an accident brief and thats what I put out if the info was incorrect then you could correct it with out living up to the MESA reputation. I know this post will offend a lot of people and sorry for that but trust me I am holding back on mesa and so do many. The only thing that comes out of mesa's ass is the S--T that falls on the rest of the industry. Good luck on all your future scab work.

 

[TurboS7]

Hey, what's more important, getting to the bar at the hotel or a good postflight>>>>..... let's be realistic.

 

[1900laker]

Sounds like a flame war going on!

 

[TurboS7]

I saw that nasty 4 letter word that everyone seems to like to talk about too.

 

[1900laker]

I wonder where he is from (what airline)? One thing I have learned is that no matter where you are, you are probably flying with pilots that come from everywhere else. I have stuck my foot in my mouth more than once bantering in the cockpit, not knowing exactly who I was talking to. That stuff can come back to haunt you. Anyways, I imagine there will be another volley soon, so I am gonna duck back in the foxhole here....

 

[TurboS7]

Trying to figure out who is what is half the fun of this board. It is a small world and if we all really talked we are probubly personal friends of someone we both know. I have noticed that only about 10% of people on this board talk, the rest just read. That is very typical pilot, go to the local union meeting.What you see are just a few expressing their views the rest just listen. When you get in the cocpit with the quiet ones suddenly you find a depth of wisdom.I guess the old proverb stands if you are quiet they think you know more than you do. Back into my foxhole.........

 

[scouts out!]

This is not a war and I am not here to hurt anyones feelings but unfortunately when you speak your mind people get hurt. If that is the case, my apologies. I know most if not all pilots love to fly and sometimes their passion for flying blinds them from doing the right thing. TurboS7 is correct and we are all probably friends and don't know it, however if we were to say who we were some would bad mouth the other and this industry is to small for that and that would be unprofessional of anyone to do unless they really took the time to get to know that person and more than likely they would be friends. So keep venting your frustrations on this board and fly happy.

 

[1900laker]

I don't see how revealing the company you work for divulges your identity, unless you are the only pilot at said company. It helps to lend (or maybe take away) credibility from which you speak. I say this as a non-biased party as I have never worked for Mesa, nor do I know many former or current Mesa pilots. But since you went on the attack on Mesa, I think it is fair enough that the Mesa pilots who might visit this forum know a little bit about their accuser, so that they may appropriately debate your point.

I've been on this board long enough to know that there are some absolutely opposed to flame posts. I personally am not so opposed when, and I think some others will agree, you don't have a check valve for one-way flaming. In other words, you don't intentionally go out of your way to not divulge details about your own company, experience, operation, background, which might be points your opponent could draw from for their defense or subsequent flame-back.

Im not perfect but I routinely see mesa screw things up by being stupid and mesa has a lot of low time cocky guys like yourself who feel they are the next best thing to sliced bread.

This quote is some pretty pure flame, unless you give details about where, when, how, etc.

Good luck on all your future scab work.

As was this one. C'mon man. Did he say anything in his post to suggest that he is out to steal your job, or cross your picket line.

And at the end of this post, I hope that we can see eye to eye and debate in an intellectual and professional manner. Fly Safe

 

[skybuda]

"mesa has a lot of low time cocky guys like YOURSELF who feel they are the next best thing to sliced bread. "

1. Where is this comming from, I am guessing that you have many FO's at your company that have what you call low time. Another bad guess on your part thinking that I am sitting in the left seat. But then again we can see a trend starting here, second time that you have guessed and it is the second time that you are wrong.

2. You missed the whole point of the post. The NTSB has released the hours (since as you have put it makes a pilot) of the crew in the accident but didnt release the times of the second crew. Just pointing out that you were stating bad information on the second crew.

3. And since you are so experanced I would have thought that you would have known what a SCAB is by now. When did you go in strike, and if you did when did I fly one of your routes when you were on strike.

4. And if you want I will update my info, I will, but didnt really know that it was that important. But before I do, do you want my 9 years of time spent in the sim, tranning all those average and high time pilots. And on the same note do you want all the MTX cert #'s too.