Upgrade Reject

[Gorilla]

What??

My old CP was a military check airman, and he told me that in his umpteen years of doing it, he NEVER saw a perfect checkride. There was always SOMETHING you could bust somebody on, even if it was just small. You just had to consider the whole.

There are BUSTABLE items, and DOWNGRADABLE items in the military. Dropping below MDA on a non-precision approach is an auto-bust. Not managing airspeed during a split-S might be simply a downgrade. True, no ride is perfect, but lack of perfection does not equate to a bust.

 

[doug_or]

lack of perfection does not equate to a bust.

tell that to the FSDO!




(I kid, I kid)

 

[hoover]

Forced upgrade is a bad idea. As a friend of mine once said, "Some people are just better suited to picking up a rifle and standing a post" Just because someone can't cut it in the command position doesn't make them a bad employee. I think it means that they recognize their limitations, thus they chose to stay in position that is best for them, and their employer.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I think it's a terrible idea to allow someone to continue as a flight crewmember just because he or she is "a good employee". That's fine in an office environment but it doesn't cut it in the cockpit, in my opinion. I believe some companies require pilots to upgrade and then allow them to bid back to the right seat if they prefer. I think that's OK because then the pilot has demonstrated the ability to be a PIC. But to allow someone who "can't cut it" to continue to fly after it's been proven that he/she can't do the job (excepting the proverbial "one bad day") is unconscionable, in my opinion.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I think it's a terrible idea to allow someone to continue as a flight crewmember just because he or she is "a good employee". That's fine in an office environment but it doesn't cut it in the cockpit, in my opinion. I believe some companies require pilots to upgrade and then allow them to bid back to the right seat if they prefer. I think that's OK because then the pilot has demonstrated the ability to be a PIC. But to allow someone who "can't cut it" to continue to fly after it's been proven that he/she can't do the job (excepting the proverbial "one bad day") is unconscionable, in my opinion.

This makes sense, but if after several years having fulfilled their duties as an FO properly, they are just cut for not beign able to upgrade?

If they can do the job they've been doing, why is a failed PIC ride going to end their employment.

 

[Guitar Guy]

If they can do the job they've been doing, why is a failed PIC ride going to end their employment.

Because at most companies, the SIC is supposed to be learning the duties of the PIC. If the SIC, after say several years and two or three earnest attempts at upgrade, cannot demonstrate that he is able to competently operate as a PIC, then I think it's reasonable for a company to let him go.

Think about this scenario. On a flight, the PIC becomes incapacitated. Now the SIC must take over full control of the aircraft. Would you want your loved ones on that flight if the SIC couldn't handle the plane but was "a nice guy" and a "good employee"?

 

[taloft]

Think about this scenario. On a flight, the PIC becomes incapacitated. Now the SIC must take over full control of the aircraft. Would you want your loved ones on that flight if the SIC couldn't handle the plane but was "a nice guy" and a "good employee"?

I suppose that makes sense, but on the other hand that same SIC has proven that he COULD handle the airplane on numerous SIC checkrides. If not, he never would have made it through initial, right?

 

[NYCPilot]

How much different is the PIC from the SIC checkride. If someones flown for 3+ years along with multiple PC checks, shouldnt they be able to handle the duties of PIC. C'mon now. And how often does one fail the upgrade 3 times.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I suppose that makes sense, but on the other hand that same SIC has proven that he COULD handle the airplane on numerous SIC checkrides. If not, he never would have made it through initial, right?

Part of the PIC checkride involves the examiner reviewing the candidate's decision-making. As far as maneuvers go, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the SIC and PIC rides. However, one big difference I noted at the regional that I was at is that on an SIC ride, the examiner told the SIC what do after each emergency (engine failure, etc.) while on the PIC ride, the captain applicant needed to determine what the next course of action was to be (in the case of an engine failure, can it be restarted, nearby alternates, performance considerations, etc). That would be my concern with someone who couldn't pass upgrade after multiple attempts - how is his/her judgement and ability to cope with abnormal or emergency situations.

And how often does one fail the upgrade 3 times.

Unfortunately, I saw a few people fail two or three times at the regional I was at. I think one guy ended up busting four times before moving to a different carrier.

 

[NYCPilot]

Guitar Guy

This makes more sense now. I can see why some have difficulty upgrading.

Do you have any stories of how they botched their PIC rides. What they did or didn't do; what they should have done. What type of scenarios can one expect and how to handle them and how NOT to handle them.

Sounds like a lot of this is more dependent on the individuals decsion making and judgement skills.

 

[NYCPilot]

Unfortunately, I saw a few people fail two or three times at the regional I was at. I think one guy ended up busting four times before moving to a different carrier.

I assume he was formally terminated and a notation made in his PRIA records. How difficult is it to obtain employment after failing so many times.

 

[Guitar Guy]

He wasn't formally terminated. Instead, he was told that his next checkride would be with the director of training. The message was, "Find a new job in the interim" because this pilot and the head of training did not like each other and the pilot outright blamed the director of training for his "training difficulties". As for an entry in his PRIA records, sometimes the truth can be somewhat obscured. If, for example, someone is doing poorly in upgrade training and elects to discontinue or is discontinued by the company, it's not quite the same on the records as a formal checkride failure. At least that's how I understand it.

If you're interested in how often someone can or should be able to fail checkrides and still continue as a professional pilot, there was a thread on that topic a few weeks ago with a lot of opinions offered. Try a search if you'd like to read more.

 

[NYCPilot]

Well having flown with some of these guys who had trouble upgrading, how would you rate them as pilots. Shouldthey even be copilots to begin with. I'm assuming that if they cant make good decisions, they probably lack in other areas as well, such as flying abilities overall. Would this hold true?

 

[Rook]

We have an asian female 727 S/O at UPS that has tried to upgrade to F/O numerous times and for various reasons she can't make the grade. It will be interesting to see what happens when we finally retire the last 3 crew aircraft. Will she get one more shot to upgrade or has the company already made her some type of deal to keep her from trying again? Time will tell. The bottom line with her is that as long as she is employed here, NO pilot can ever get fired for reasons related to proficiency and failing a checkride. She's Miss Job Security!

Had a UPS guy in my jumpseat a couple of months ago that told me the same story. Thought he might've been exaggerating. Guess he wasn't.