Upcoming SMO Changes and Impact on Fractionals...

[learflyer]

But for all the other reasons stated in this thread, that airport is a pain in the a**.

agreed. my favorite is having to call the noise abatement office to see what noise level you hit. Do they still make you do that? Haven't been there in a while.

 

[Galaxy]

I don't know why as pilots we get in a stir about this place. It never bothered me either way if I went there or not. My life will change zero if they close it to all jets not just cat c and d. The people that will be effected will be the owners that use the airport and the businesses that are on and around the airport will suffer. Let those folks and the FAA fight that silly city for the airport.

 

[realityman]

learflyer,

You don't HAVE to do it. But it can help keep your butt out of hot water if you're flying a jet that can set off the noise monitors. At that airport more information is a good thing.

Galaxy,

The more airports that successfully restrict aircraft of any type (for noise, approach category, weight, whatever) the more airports will try to do the same things. Sure, who cares if SMO keeps out aircraft of approach Cats C and D. And who cares if APF has banned anything noisier than stage III. And who cares if TEB has restricted aircraft to 100000lbs or less (not sure if that's the exact weight, but something like it). Who cares if a mayor can sneak in in the middle of the night and bulldoze Meigs.

How long will it be before it will start causing us problems about where we're going to park our fancy jets? How many reliever airports are truly an easy drive to Santa Monica? This is an insidious problem that isn't good for our line of work. We most definitely should care what happens at this airport, and many others!

 

[Voice Of Reason]

learflyer,

You don't HAVE to do it. But it can help keep your butt out of hot water if you're flying a jet that can set off the noise monitors. At that airport more information is a good thing.

Galaxy,

The more airports that successfully restrict aircraft of any type (for noise, approach category, weight, whatever) the more airports will try to do the same things. Sure, who cares if SMO keeps out aircraft of approach Cats C and D. And who cares if APF has banned anything noisier than stage III. And who cares if TEB has restricted aircraft to 100000lbs or less (not sure if that's the exact weight, but something like it). Who cares if a mayor can sneak in in the middle of the night and bulldoze Meigs.

How long will it be before it will start causing us problems about where we're going to park our fancy jets? How many reliever airports are truly an easy drive to Santa Monica? This is an insidious problem that isn't good for our line of work. We most definitely should care what happens at this airport, and many others!

Oh, please...let's not get all drama queen. You know it won't get that far, especially where $ is concerned.
Again, WHO CARES...there are much more widespread and pressing matters that affect our livelihoods right now without crying over imaginary "what ifs" that the wealthy won't let happen to them.

 

[realityman]

VOR,

Maybe you should come out of fantasy land and join us here in reality for a bit.

What ifs?! Dude, it's ALREADY happening!! Do you know how much money we fly into and out of APF regularly? And yet, the restrictions are there. How much big money do you think goes into and out of TEB on a daily basis? Answer: Plenty!!! Sure, it's a limited crowd that's affected by a 100000LB weight restriction. For now. But the fact is, these restrictions ARE happening. And at more than just the four airports I previously mentioned.

Do you know how many small airports are closing on a yearly basis? If not, maybe you should take some time to educate yourself before coming on here and giving us the "Too much big money involved for it to happen." treatment. It's happening!

Are you aware of the curfews that currently exist at numerous airports around the country, some voluntary, some mandatory? How hard would it be to have those curfew times extended? All become mandatory? Or just plain doing what APF or SMO has/is doing?

I'm not telling anyone that the sky is falling on this. Just saying that the ol head-in-the-sand treatment of it won't help things get any better. We may not actually like SMO, or TEB, or any number of other airports, but these kinds of restrictions should be of at least a little concern for all of us who make a living by flying planes. No need for the cyanide pill just yet, maybe just staying informed of what's happening is a good start.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I actually think environmental nazi-ism will end this segment of the industry a lot faster than noise abatement will. When people are harassed and publicly outed for "private jet" use as much as they are for using gas mowers or fertilizer on their own lawns this year, that'll be the quick end to that, and I see that coming sooner than later. I'm as environmental as reasonable, but the this years trendies are going crazy on everyone for everything (of course with those types it's always 'do as I say, not as I actually do.'...and that enviro "credit" bs won't stop them...still using a whole plane for a select few....

 

[DAS at 10/250]

No Netjets plane will be able to get in there if this stands.

The Sovereign is a Cat B.

 

[Galaxy]

Galaxy,

The more airports that successfully restrict aircraft of any type (for noise, approach category, weight, whatever) the more airports will try to do the same things. Sure, who cares if SMO keeps out aircraft of approach Cats C and D. And who cares if APF has banned anything noisier than stage III. And who cares if TEB has restricted aircraft to 100000lbs or less (not sure if that's the exact weight, but something like it). Who cares if a mayor can sneak in in the middle of the night and bulldoze Meigs.

How long will it be before it will start causing us problems about where we're going to park our fancy jets? How many reliever airports are truly an easy drive to Santa Monica? This is an insidious problem that isn't good for our line of work. We most definitely should care what happens at this airport, and many others!

OK, I agree with you on many things but pilots are not the bad guys here. First, a restriction to 100K or less at TEB. A fully loaded GLEX weighs in at 98K. A G550 sits at 85.5K and the new 7X is coming in light at 69K. How much bigger does Mr Billionair need? A BBJ or ACJ? My heart bleeds for him as he has to go to JFK or EWR. He might even have to ride the Augusta to the city from there. Every plane has issues.
The noisey birds. Lets see GII, Lr 20's, Sabers. They are old. They should be retired and sent south to a third world country that can support the fuel bill that goes along with owning a G-uzzler-II.
SMO and the lame city noise wackos. The feds have done nothing about it and the city just gets more and more anal about things. Last I heard that if a city took federal funds for the airport that it drew them into a lease to keep the airport open for 20 years. If the city really wants the land let them have it at the going rate for land in the area and pay back all the money they took from Uncle Sam for the previous 20 years. Mr Bush can send that money to Iraq to spend in about half a day.
Naples, another band of greedy wackos. They ran the other FBO out of business after they saw how much money he was making. What ever happened to free enterprise. We sold this country a long time ago to greedy politicians that listen to loud voices of BIG corporations instead of the whispers of a few voters. Didn't the health care industry spend 1 BILLION last ear on BLOCKING health care reform. Please save us from ourselves!
Mayor Daley from Chicago-What a piece of work there. The FAA was slow to act He had only been threatening it for 9 years. A 33K fine and repay 1 million to the feds. He should have been jailed for destruction of government property. But, a long line of Daley's with $$$ backing them. What did the outraged people of Chicago do? The re-elected him in 2007. He is now the longest running mayor of that city. Perhaps someone will help him get to the Senate or worse.

So if they don't have a place for me to park my fancy jet I will gladly fly it to a less anal place and wait out the storm.
An easy drive to reliever airports--I could care less how long they drive. They have the money-and money talks in this country. I guess their money was not spent wooing politicians to get what they want. I would be more than happy to go to LAX and wait it out there for them and tell them we are number 40 for take off. And for worrying about my job in aviation-as long as the TSA and Airlines continue on their great path we will always have a job.
I have to concern myself with other things that touch closer to home-like a CEO that would rather kill a company than negotiate a contract.

 

[realityman]

Galaxy,

Where did I say pilots are the bad guys? I missed that part in my post. I never said any of this was the pilots' fault, I said they should care about what's going on and stay informed.

I realize that you and quite a few others have more pressing issues to deal with right now. I never said drop everything and start figuring out a solution to these problems.

But once again, I will reiterate that a head-in-the-sand attitude will only aid those who would see our many GA airports restricted or closed. Do you think that EVERYONE who has money and influence rides around in private jets? APF has a lot of big money in the area, and I'm sure it wasn't the maids who work for the rich folks who lobbied for the restrictions.

Small airports across the country are closed every year. Why? Many don't cause problems with noise and pollution. But many sit on prime real estate for development. So when Mr. Wealthy developer would like to build a mall or industrial park on the site of a current airport, you can bet he's gonna bring some $$$ and influence to bear in order to aquire that prime land. And there are plenty of examples where they win.

Will something like that happen to TEB? Mmmm.......highly doubtful. But anything that causes more restrictions or airport closures will not be good for us in the long run. So you don't care if Mr. Big Bucks has to drive from LAX to SMO? Hey, great! One hotel looks much like another to us, right? Well, as airports are restricted or closed, the airplanes left out will have to go somewhere. That means more crowding at the airports where they can land at. I wonder how it'll affect our employment if we start needing slots to get into TEB? How about HPN? Or LAX? Or even VNY? It could definitely have an effect on our growth rates. Throw in user fees and maybe things slow down a bit more. And none of it good for us, the pilots.

Your post if full of "I don't care, I don't care, I don't care." and "Don't worry, the money guys will handle it.". I do find it interesting how you believe unity among the pilots at FLOPS will bring results, but you don't think it's necessary to have unity to solve other problems. Because it will take unity between the OEM's, FBO's, pilots, and the folks who own and fly in these planes to fight the slow erosion of aviation in this country (or maybe, more accurately, the erosion of our aviation infrastructure).

Hey look, I know you have better and more important issues to attend to right now. And you have my full support in your fight at FLOPS! Wishing you folks all the best. You deserve a fair and professional contract! But when the dust settles, it couldn't hurt to stay informed, and who knows, maybe get involved with problems that continue to plague our industry.

 

[Galaxy]

Realityman,
I didn't mean to make it sound like you said something you did not. It just came off like it was pilots with our head in the sand. We are on the same side brother. I am far from the head in the sand mentality you call it. I support all the orginazations that fight for airports all over the country. AOPA and NBAA as well as local friends of "X" airport groups. But as much as voters we would like to think calling or emailing your elected officials is better than nothing but it can be close to banging your head on the wall. Money talks-Period. You are correct about Mr Developer that builds next to an airport and then see the airport as a great expansion for his development. The folks that move in complain about the plane noise even though the airport has been there 60 years longer than the home they live in. That must be the head in the sand you refer to.

Truth is.. I do care--a lot - enough to post here. I stay informed on the issues of all the airport discussed as well as many others on the chopping block. The reality is when you look at the ratio of active pilots to the US population we are such a minority to govt officials. They will look at the revenue over property taxes long before they care about our jobs and rich clients. So do support and send in your proxy vote to AOPA, and NBAA. I guess to explain my stance further is I was given the opportunity to sit on a board for a friends of "X" airport and met with the airport mgr, city commission and became frustrated on how govt has their minds made up even before they called the meeting-it was just a formality for us to go and speak. AOPA helped out a lot and gave us more info than we needed. It ended up that the city took a huge lump of money for airport improvements 2 years earlier and hadn't spent a dime at the airport. Uncle Sam would not have been happy. So the field has been spared for now.

Airport slots and stuff- I wouldn't want them any more than you. But corp aviation is growing evey year. It seems that all the "Richers" want to live in the same place. TEB, HPN, PBI, APF, SMO. What are we to do about it? I don't know-but I do care-perhaps slot times would encourage them to be on time for a change? The problems are bigger than you or I. That is why I leave my support to the groups that go fight the good fight.

Most of all thanks for your support of FLOPS. I would like to thank all of the NJA pilots for the support they have given us from the very begining. I make sure to shake all the NJ hands I can when on the road. I suggest FLOPS pilots do the same.

Lets get together and have some beers--but I know both our pay scales and you are buying.

 

[realityman]

Ah, I see you do have a bit of an inside track on what's going on out there.

My apologies for making the assumptions I did. I just feel this stuff is important, even if it's not immediately pressing.

I don't drink alcohol, so if we meet somewhere the first TWO rounds are on me!!:beer: You can drink yours and the one I would've drunk if I imbibed the fire water!

And you have more support at NJA than you know. Keep up the good fight!!

 

[ProFracPilot]

I don't drink alcohol, so if we meet somewhere the first TWO rounds are on me!!:beer: You can drink yours and the one I would've drunk if I imbibed the fire water!

Galaxy-

I'd make him buy all night! Not only is there a LARGE disparity in pay scales, but realityman probably still has the first dollar he ever earned from flying!

realityman-

I thought you would have bid the 2000 by now...

 

[realityman]

Galaxy-

I'd make him buy all night! Not only is there a LARGE disparity in pay scales, but realityman probably still has the first dollar he ever earned from flying!

realityman-

I thought you would have bid the 2000 by now...

Ha! Had that first dollar until I got married.

I'd love to try a new plane at this point but I can't. I've got the golden handcuffs in the X. Going to the 2000 would mean losing the IOE pay, $9K/year, and I have no intention of taking a pay cut to fly a bigger plane.
I'm definitely going to give it some thought, though, if we get the Citation Columbus, or we see 7X's on our side of the pond.

 

[bailey3083]

Santa Monica Airport
Office of the Director
3223 Donald Douglas Loop South
Suite 3
Santa Monica, CA 90405
(310) 458-8591
FAX (310) 572-4495

April 10, 2008

Re: Santa Monica Airport – Implementation of Ban on Category C and D Aircraft.

Dear Santa Monica Airport User:

On March 25, 2008 the Santa Monica City Council adopted an ordinance restricting aircraft operations at the Santa Monica Municipal Airport (SMO) to aircraft designated by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) as Category A and B aircraft. The Santa Monica Airport is designed to handle such aircraft, which have approach speeds of less than 121 knots. Operations by Category C and D aircraft are prohibited by the ordinance.

The new ordinance will go into effect on April 24, 2008, after which only aircraft in the FAA designated A & B categories will be allowed to operate at SMO. Attached for your reference
is a table explaining FAA aircraft approach speed categories. Also you can visit the following FAA link to determine which category your aircraft falls under:
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...char_database/.

Note: In general, the new ordinance provides that, except in the case of a bona fide emergency, no person operating a category C or D aircraft, as defined by FAA’s standards, shall land or depart from the Santa Monica Municipal Airport after April 23, 2008. Penalties for violation of the Ordinance include misdemeanor prosecution with punishment of a fine not greater than One Thousand Dollars ($1,000) or imprisonment in the County Jail for not more than six months, or both. The Ordinance is available for viewing at www.smgov.net or www.santamonicaairport.org (airport website).

Users of Santa Monica Airport, who utilize fractional share aircraft, may want to consult with their fractional share operators. As noted on their websites, the following fractional operators allow their participants to change to aircraft in compliant categories:

Netjets: http://www.netjets.com/The%20NetJets...m_overview.asp
Flexjet: http://www.flexjet.com/home.html;
Flight Options: http://www.flightoptions.com/about_overview.html

I also advise that you periodically check the Santa Monica Airport’s internet site at www.santamonicaairport.org for updates.

Sincerely

Robert D, Trimborn
Airport Director
Santa Monica Airport



FAA Designated Approach Categories



According to FAA Advisory Circular 150/5300-13, Airport Design, an aircraft’s approach category is based upon 1.3 times its stall speed at the aircraft’s maximum certificated weight.
The five approach categories used are as follows:

Category A: Speed less than 91 knots
Category B: Speed 91 knots or more but less than 121 knots
Category C: Speed 121 knots or more, but less than 141 knots
Category D: Speed 141 knots or more, but less than 166 knots
Category E: Speed greater than 166 knots

 

[RNObased]

No Netjets plane will be able to get in there if this stands.

Once again Jonjuan, think before you post. I know it is hard for you, but please try.

Plenty of NJA aircraft are Cat B.

 

[RNObased]

Oops, forgot about the Citations....

How is that possible??? Considering how many of them are around??

You never cease to amaze me with your lack of smarts.

 

[On Your Six]

Latest from AIN Online:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]FAA: Santa Monica Airport Ban ‘Unlawful’[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The FAA issued a cease-and-desist order late yesterday ordering Santa Monica (Calif.) Airport officials to halt implementation of an ordinance banning Category C and D aircraft at the field. Airport director Robert Trimborn sent a letter on April 10 to airport users advising them that after today (April 24), “only aircraft in the FAA-designated A and B categories will be allowed to operate at SMO.” Category C and D aircraft have approach speeds greater than 121 knots, and the ordinance would affect about 9,000 of the annual 130,000 aircraft operations at SMO. Penalties include misdemeanor prosecution and a fine up to $1,000 “or imprisonment in the County Jail for not more than six months, or both,” according to Trimborn’s letter. The FAA’s cease-and-desist order noted that “we can make a preliminary finding that the City’s ban on operation of these aircraft is likely unlawful.” Having accepted federal money, the airport cannot deny Category C and D aircraft operators the right to use the airport, the FAA said.[/FONT]

 

[ableone]

The city says that they are going to enforce the ban in defiance of the FAA cease and desist order.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-faa24apr24,1,780534.story

Should get interesting.

Anyone scheduled to fly a C or D out there soon?

 

[Galaxy]

This is going to get interesting tomorrow morning...

The airport was built in 1919.

Most of the homes right under the runways were built in the 60's. Seems more like they are trying to cover for poor local planning decisions.

In 1984 the city signed an agreement not to limit jet traffic there. The agreement expires in 2015. Looks like they do not want to wait it out.

While I agree that nobody would have ever imagined G4's headed to TEB out of SMO in the late 20's the homes in fear of their lives were built in the 60's. Many jets were flying during the housing boom in CA.

It is up to the FAA to see if they actually have a backbone and pull a federal court into the fight.

I hope someone actually does fly in there with a C or D aircraft. I hope they don't get arrested-I bet there will be some rich guy with a C or D aircraft that will tell his pilots to go in there-The FAA said it is against the law to discriminate against me and my big jet.

 

[ProFracPilot]

I bet there will be some rich guy with a C or D aircraft that will tell his pilots to go in there-The FAA said it is against the law to discriminate against me and my big jet.

I'm sure no one on here ever flew for a principal who would tell his pilots something like this: "How much will they fine us? $500? $1000? I only need to get in there this one time anyway. And besides, compared to what we're spending for gas in our (non-hushed G2, LR25, etc), any noise fine is chump change. We'll just go and, if you need to, pay the fine". I was certainly never told to do something like that...