Up or Out Question

[DrewBlows]

How does an up or out (upgrade or leave) policy help or hurt the company? Conversely, how does an up or out policy help or hurt the union employees? I don't really know the politics of this issue, just want information/opinions.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Rook]

I would say that it would help the company by weeding out the guys milking a F/O paycheck that couldn't pass a CA ride. It would help the company if they were short on CA's, but hurt them because that pilot's pay will increase significantly. My opinion is that the union wants its pilots to upgrade. Our contract gives a guy a chance to return to the line as an F/O for 12 months after busting a portion of the CA training. Should that candidate 'pink' a second time after the 12 months the company has the option to terminate the employee.

Rook

 

[Kream926]

I Should that candidate 'pink' a second time after the 12 months the company has the option to terminate the employee.

Rook

does this ever happen or is everyone up for a capt ride pass?

 

[Rook]

does this ever happen or is everyone up for a capt ride pass?

It happens. In my upgrade class there were 3 busts. Of those 3, it was one individual's second time going thru the upgrade course. He was asked to leave. The other 2 passed on their re-take after being trained on the area of operations that they were defecient in.

Rook

 

[Socalplt]

At SkyWest you can stay in the right seat forever if thats your choice. We've got several FOs that have been here probably 8-9 years. However, once you do go to upgrade class you have to pass the training or you are fired. Between the written test, sim, and aircraft checkride you can have two failures but will be fired after the third. Additionally, you could have no problem with these but be let go at the end of IOE if the Checkairmen don't have confidence in you. The majority of people make it through the upgrade but there are several a year that don't.

 

[FlyingDawg]

What about the guy who can't hold a first class medical. He could sit FO with a second class. Is he also forced out?

 

[igneousy2]

What about the guy who can't hold a first class medical. He could sit FO with a second class. Is he also forced out?

Depends on the contract but most times he would be forced out.

It doesn't usually come into play all that much at the regional level as most gusy are chomping at the bit to upgrade. At the major level it's more of an issue. $90,000 a year to be number one line holder with 20 days off a month and weekends which works to $750 per day or you can have $170,000 a year to be airport ready with 12 days off which works to $787 per day. It's a tough call.

Later

 

[DetoXJ]

Depends on the contract but most times he would be forced out.

It doesn't usually come into play all that much at the regional level as most gusy are chomping at the bit to upgrade. At the major level it's more of an issue. $90,000 a year to be number one line holder with 20 days off a month and weekends which works to $750 per day or you can have $170,000 a year to be airport ready with 12 days off which works to $787 per day. It's a tough call.

Later

Not at Mesaba. Life is really good in the right seat for our FO's. We have tons of 5 and 6 year FO's who are bypassing the upgrade.

 

[Socalplt]

I know at SkyWest a few years back we had a Captain that had some heart problems and could only hold a 2nd class medical. He was allowed to fly as a FO. I'm not sure if he ever got his 1st class back or wound up retiring.

I've been at SkyWest five years and I'm just about in the top 1/3 of the seniority list. There are approximately 40 pilots senior to me that have bypassed upgrade and hundreds more junior that have also passed up an upgrade in the past. Not everybody is dying at the chance to sit reserve in ORD.

 

[Bluto]

The majority of people make it through the upgrade but there are several a year that don't.

Is there any source for solid numbers on this? I wonder how SkyWest compares to other carriers in this aspect.

 

[Socalplt]

The only info I get is from the people I fly with, nothing official.