United looking more and more like USAIR

[get2flyin]

This is fun.

Marty

Marty seems to entertain himself with the web-board equivalent of pulling the fire alarm and giggling at the people running out of the building. In all reality, he's a moron and we *(myself included) should just ignore him.

 

[Captzaahlie]

DOH is with fences and protections. You can not just jump over and take someones position. That concept seems pretty hard to grasp for some. No AWA pilot for example would lose his position in PHX. The Captain positions in PHX are yours, so DOH has no effect to your position. Thats why there are fences and protections. Every other employee group uses DOH. Its just the me me me crowd who think that someone that has 2 years to be placed with some one with 15 years of service. Its pathetic.

Marty

Who bought Usair a couple years back?


US Airways/America West deal announced


<< SideStep launches packages into meta travel search | Main | Bye bye postcards >>
Diane Clarkson | May 20, 2005, 11:39 AM
After weeks of speculation, America West has announced that they, along with a group of investors, will buy US Airways. The combined airlines will become the sixth largest domestic carrier in the US. The combined carrier will keep the name US Airways, and be headquartered in America West’s home, Tempe, Arizona, and the CEO of the merged company will be America West’s current CEO, Doug Parker. The merger will begin as a marketing alliance and unfold over three years.
The deal still needs to be approved by US antitrust and transportation officials, the ATSB, and bankruptcy court.
(http://weblogs.jupiterresearch.com/analysts/clarkson/archives/2005/05/us_airwaysameri.html)



You got rid of Alpa, you still have a job so just shut the F-up about it. Oh yeah, and just for the record Alpa & Usap both suck as far as I am concerned.......

 

[get2flyin]

You got rid of Alpa, you still have a job so just shut the F-up about it. Oh yeah, and just for the record Alpa & Usap both suck as far as I am concerned.......

I second that motion.

 

[TWA Dude]

DOH (with fences) was the stated ALPA merger policy in effect at the time. When the USAir/UAL merger was proffered by Wolf, ALPA changed the policy to "career expectations" in leiu of DOH to accomodate the UAL MEC's concerns about the potential SLI isssues.

You seem to be confusing the timeline. ALPA Merger Policy was changed away from pure DOH in the early '90s. The UAL/USAir merger was announced ten years later.

By dropping DOH and citing career expectations, ALPA created a very subjective criteria to process SLI.

That's true and it was very necessary. Which is more desirable: fairness or expediency? If arbitrator Nicolau felt DOH was fair he would've ruled that way. The USAir/Shuttle merger went close to DOH and was decided by Nicolau as well.

 

[becket]

This is fun.

Marty

Because you're a douch bag.

 

[waka]

I suggest a "joint declaration" of all pilot groups, regardless of union affiliaton, that no former USAir pilot (excluding ex-AWA) hired before May 2005 should ever be hired by any US airline. Kinda like the unwritten "Don't hire ex-Braniff" rule - only this time an open declaration.

Need to get this open, puss-filled sore out of our ranks.

Once someone starts to see through all of the misplaced arrogance, you start to see the pure stupidity of blacklisting all pre 5/05 USAir pilots. It isn't them, it is the likes of you that tarnishes our profession. Give me a break.

 

[IBNAV8R]

IMHO, AWA should have let USAir go belly up and those ungrateful, arrogant a$$es could have proudly worn their new blue vest with their DOH embroidered on the lower back side.

I sympathize with your plight. I'd be pissed off too but I wouldn't try to f*** over the guys who just saved me from being a greeter or, even worse, sucking up to a regional.

 

[Max Powers]

Well it looks like the most junior pilot at United will be around 1998. That is 10 years. There will be pilots that will be furloughed the 2nd time and things are not looking so rosy.

It looks like a mirror image of what happened at USAIR. I hope United pilots get respected for their sacrifice and that you do not have to go through a merger with a startup that tells you that your 15 years are worth nothing and that your airline should have gone out of business. Its been a very frustrating time with AWA pilots and they do not seem to grasp that your DOH is not something you just give up.
Good luck to United and I hope that you prosper and do not merge with some startup outfit that tries to steal your flying and your DOH.

Marty

Evidently two wrongs make a right in your book. I think the objective third party arbitrator gave you more than what was fair in regard to a merged seniority list.

I work at NWA and I will be working hard the next 30 years so the company can fund a pilot pension that I will see NONE of! But they did promise the pension to them so by your logic that makes it ok to screw the younger generation to correct someone else's mistake.

 

[JetMonkey]

DOH is with fences and protections. You can not just jump over and take someones position. That concept seems pretty hard to grasp for some. No AWA pilot for example would lose his position in PHX. The Captain positions in PHX are yours, so DOH has no effect to your position. Thats why there are fences and protections. Every other employee group uses DOH. Its just the me me me crowd who think that someone that has 2 years to be placed with some one with 15 years of service. Its pathetic.

Marty

That 2 and 15 year pilot were in the same posistion on their respective lists. It's only fair to place them on the SAME realitive posistion on the combined list. What you want to do is catapult that 15 year guy to a place on the seniority list that he wasn't at before the merger.

 

[becket]

That 2 and 15 year pilot were in the same posistion on their respective lists. It's only fair to place them on the SAME realitive posistion on the combined list. What you want to do is catapult that 15 year guy to a place on the seniority list that he wasn't at before the merger.

Yep, Marty will never fully understand that the 15 year East guy's seniority is in fact, worthless. It didn't earn jack s... before the merger and it shouldn't be worth jack s... now. It's far to painful a thought and the natural mental defense mechanism is to block it out.

Fortunately, the court system, arbitrator Nicalau, and the vast majority of other union pilots don't suffer from the same affliction. However, as the stock starts to get perilously close to one dollar, and subsequent de-listing, the next and hopefully final BK for this diseased animal of an airline won't be far away.

Marty is a 1999 hire who left a decent job to accept recall on the gamble that US Air had indeed been saved by AWA. That gamble blew up in his face as nothing can save US Air...never bet on US Air, it's a fools errand.

It's been nothing but a constant stream of failures and disappointments since the 80's. It's a dinosaur and will soon be joining it's elders in the bone yard. AWA shouldn't have to pay for the short sightedness of a group elderly/oft furloughed pilots. They had ample opportunity to leave over the years but they couldn't help themselves from the big gamble.

 

[waka]

They had ample opportunity to leave over the years but they couldn't help themselves from the big gamble.

Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? You're so brilliant!

 

[Mr.B]

This is fun.

Marty

Get a life Marty

 

[UALjan15]

Fences would have blocked USAir pilots from bidding UAL bases, equipment and Capt seats already being flown by UAL pilots, and blocked USAir bases/equip from UAL pilots for a negoiated number of years (or decades in the case of Republic/NWA).

Any sort of "merged list" co-mingleing UAL/USAir pilots outside of their respective bases/equipment posted by someone in a crewroom would have been baseless (ha ha) and without merit.

And what would have been the story with the nearly 2200 UAL furloughs between 2001-2003? Under Marty's plan, all of those 88/89 AAA hires would've kept their jobs and spilt even more UAL blood on the street.

Marty and his ilk rave about the fairness of DOH with fences, but they conveniently forget to mention what a radical difference it makes when the furloughs start rolling. If they had their way, a junior east F/O could still have 90%+ of the AWA list below him for furlough protection, including most of our Captains! That's great for them, but fair?????Hardly!

Ask a former TWA guy how much protection those fences around STL provided them when they got stapled.

 

[reepicheep]

Wonder what would have happened if they'd fenced off all the PSA pilots after the 1988 merger...all those positions were eventually eliminated. Same deal is going on now with AWA as usair begins dismantling the west coast (again).

 

[HAL]

Hey MCDU (and all who think like him),

Here's a serious question that I hope will help you explain your position.

Say a pilot is hired at airline A, then is furloughed a month later (don't worry about probationary periods, etc). The next year a different pilot is hired at airline B. Ten years later the first pilot is finally recalled at airline A, and a day later, it is announced that airlines A and B are merging.

According to your theory, the first pilot who has one month and one day working with the airline should be placed ahead of pilot B who's been with his airline for ten years and now may be a Captain. Fences may exist, but in reality, that first pilot will then forever be ahead of the second pilot on the seniority list.

My question is, is that fair? The first pilot may not have even made it through initial training, yet by your method he is supposed to be ahead of the second pilot. If you think that this case is correct, please explain why someone with so little time at the company should be placed ahead of someone with vastly more experience at the same company.

If you think that isn't right, then where is the cutoff? How many years difference in service should there be before it doesn't feel right to merge by DOH? Or how many years of longevity should a pilot have before it becomes OK to go DOH?

It's a useful tool to use here - stretching an idea to its limits to see if that idea really has merit. Whether we're talking about mathematics, economics, or airline mergers, sometimes it works well to find an extreme in order to make sense of a subject.

HAL