United buys 40 EMB175s

[Scoot 11]

So angry. Why so touchy? Perhaps because you are clinging onto a past that will never be again? Just be happy with where you are. I am. You will have a long and prosperous career at Delta, and you will be flying big planes on long routes.

Peace.

Angry? Hardly. I'm just responding to the following comment:

And you will operate them at a loss until you ditch them.

So I'll ask you again, what's the actual cost vs. Revenue? I'll time you with a calender.
Since you made the claim that DL will operate them at a loss, you must know.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Angry? Hardly. I'm just responding to the following comment:

So I'll ask you again, what's the actual cost vs. Revenue? I'll time you with a calender.
Since you made the claim that DL will operate them at a loss, you must know.

Both are as yet unknown as you do not yet operate them. My comment was based on what I have heard from the gentlemen that I referenced above and their statements regarding the MD-80 and that over the course of the year Delta barely breaks even on them. If you want the actual numbers, why don't you ask your bean counters. The hub and spoke model is based on filling the big planes, that means that sometimes the route segments that feed them will operate at a loss.


Think about this, a 747 can generate about the same amount of revenue as ten DC-9's, yet it takes almost the same amount of support to operate each. Why the he!! would a sane CEO want to operate more smaller planes? The only reason is to avoid a pilot strike.

Jon Rivoli has a very very very poor understanding of airline economics.]

Actually, economics is my background and I spent time in airline management too. There is only one good job in aviation, if you aren't flying the plane it is a shyte industry.

Airline economics tells me that I would be a fool at this stage of my life to go to a legacy. Better to diversify your income stream than hope for a more profitable and secure job somewhere else.

If you are selling your time for a living, you are labor and will always get the shyte end of the stick.

Peace

 

[Scoot 11]

Both are as yet unknown as you do not yet operate them.

Then you need a nice big cup of STHU! Because YOU don't have the foggiest how much it's going to cost to operate them. Neither does the genius you quote.

My comment was based on what I have heard from the gentlemen that I referenced above and their statements regarding the MD-80 and that over the course of the year Delta barely breaks even on them.

Ok, so now we're talking about MD-80's? I thought the conversation was about the 717? Which is it, so I can stay on track. I'm not that smart.

If you want the actual numbers, why don't you ask your bean counters. The hub and spoke model is based on filling the big planes, that means that sometimes the route segments that feed them will operate at a loss.

I don't need to ask them. I didn't make the statement Jon, YOU DID!

Think about this, a 747 can generate about the same amount of revenue as ten DC-9's, yet it takes almost the same amount of support to operate each. Why the he!! would a sane CEO want to operate more smaller planes? The only reason is to avoid a pilot strike.

Great, you've got it all figured out. Why the hell did you check rj pilot on the application. You should have checked CEO!

As for this comment you quoted above:

Jon Rivoli has a very very very poor understanding of airline economics.]

I can't seem to reference where I stated that.

Actually, economics is my background and I spent time in airline management too. There is only one good job in aviation, if you aren't flying the plane it is a shyte industry.

Airline economics tells me that I would be a fool at this stage of my life to go to a legacy. Better to diversify your income stream than hope for a more profitable and secure job somewhere else.

If you are selling your time for a living, you are labor and will always get the shyte end of the stick.

Peace

I don't particularly care about being labor or managment. My priorities are:
My God
My family
Everything else!
It's really quite simple. Try it

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Then you need a nice big cup of STHU! Because YOU don't have the foggiest how much it's going to cost to operate them. Neither does the genius you quote.

Ok, so now we're talking about MD-80's? I thought the conversation was about the 717? Which is it, so I can stay on track. I'm not that smart.

I don't need to ask them. I didn't make the statement Jon, YOU DID!



Great, you've got it all figured out. Why the hell did you check rj pilot on the application. You should have checked CEO!

As for this comment you quoted above:


I can't seem to reference where I stated that.

I don't particularly care about being labor or managment. My priorities are:
My God
My family
Everything else!
It's really quite simple. Try it

Dude, I'm not the one who's blood pressure is spiking here. It sounds like you have your priorities strait, don't get so worked up over a stupid message board. Time will tell what happens in this industry and in the end it is completely beyond our control.

If you're happy where you're at, that's all that matters. I am quite content where I am too. I just like twisting Jenny Leigh's tail every now an again.

Peace.

 

[General Lee]

Dude, I'm not the one who's blood pressure is spiking here. It sounds like you have your priorities strait, don't get so worked up over a stupid message board. Time will tell what happens in this industry and in the end it is completely beyond our control.

If you're happy where you're at, that's all that matters. I am quite content where I am too. I just like twisting Jenny Leigh's tail every now an again.

Peace.

Twisting my tail? What exactly are you dreaming about? First off, I don't go that way....

You claim you are too old to make a change to a legacy. Jon, that is your choice, but if you had 10 years to go, you'd make more thanks to better retirement (DC fund given to you by management, up to 13% of what you make each month, into an account in your name. You can also do your own 401K with 2% matching also), and you make RJ capt pay within 3 years. If retirements start to roll as planned (no age 70 rule as you stated), people will be jumping upward by leaps and bounds each year, making more by picking up Greenslips on current equipment, or bidding larger planes with higher pay rates. Great options as people retire in droves.

But, some RJ Captains just want the legacy or mainline planes, but brought down to the Regional level. Thanks to consolidation and STRONGER scope clauses, that is just highly unlikely. DL proved they could lease and then eventually buy a smaller mainline plane (717, smaller than DC9-50s) and commit them to Regional type routes flown by mainline crews, at high pay rates.
Can the economics work, you ask? How did the airline do with fees last year? Darn good. You always seem to leave that out of your equation.

Regardless, stay at SKW if you like it, but don't count on the legacies to fail so you can gain larger planes and a lot more pay. Extremely unlikely. Really Jon. Go twist your own tail in the corner now, and dream of the new MRJ that supposedly will come online someday. Good luck with that one...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Russ]

DAL did acquire the "smaller mainline plane" as you indicate, but another major dumped the "smaller mainline plane" to begin with.

 

[HowardBorden]

DAL did acquire the "smaller mainline plane" as you indicate, but another major dumped the "smaller mainline plane" to begin with.

The airline that dumped them did so because they have an airframe that does the same mission with very similar operating costs and carries almost 40 extra revenue producing passengers. Getting rid of them is said to save close to $100 million a year every year they are gone. It was a question of economics for SWA and they were willing to offer a very good deal to Delta in order to save large sums of money long term. When you only operate one fleet type adding another is not at all cost effective.

 

[General Lee]

DAL did acquire the "smaller mainline plane" as you indicate, but another major dumped the "smaller mainline plane" to begin with.

Riiiiiight, they are famously known for their single type fleet. They didn't want a dual fleet. DL decided they didn't want as many 50 seaters due to their unprofitability during high oil prices. They also wanted to upguage RJs to larger ones, along with adding mainline planes to upguage the current 70/76 seaters which will cover for outgoing 50 seaters. It's really simple.

The 717s will be refurbished ($130 million worth) and then DL will lease them from SWA (sub lease), and then have the option to buy them for cheap after they come off lease. It was a great deal for DL, and it will pay very well for a plane of its size.

So Russ, do you understand the above? You and Jon need to re-read it a few times.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Russ]

GL,
I recognize the Internet allows you to be a DH, but try to refrain simply on the basis of someone disagreeing with you. I long ago decided I wouldn't type anything I wouldn't be willing to say in person. Give it a try.
My point is simple, not all operators think smaller mainline aircraft are worthwhile. Many have gaps in the fleet between the largest regional and the smallest mainline aircraft. While the 717 narrows the gap, there is still a significant difference. The only question is from which end will the gap narrow?
Please don't say scope, that line in the sand has been moved a number of times and I don't see it as anything other than a short term impediment to management, both yours and mine.

 

[General Lee]

GL,
I recognize the Internet allows you to be a DH, but try to refrain simply on the basis of someone disagreeing with you. I long ago decided I wouldn't type anything I wouldn't be willing to say in person. Give it a try.
My point is simple, not all operators think smaller mainline aircraft are worthwhile. Many have gaps in the fleet between the largest regional and the smallest mainline aircraft. While the 717 narrows the gap, there is still a significant difference. The only question is from which end will the gap narrow?
Please don't say scope, that line in the sand has been moved a number of times and I don't see it as anything other than a short term impediment to management, both yours and mine.

Russ, the Internet allows people to give opinions, and backing them up helps prove points. Your imaginary line that you think all manaments control is just not the case. They cannot use BK to move the line too often, but that really has been where it was moved recently. Thanks to consolidation and the addition of bag and change fees, the big 3 airlines are not as likely to go into BK again, unless there is a catastrophic event, and then we are all in trouble. What I see is the big 3 getting bigger, even with huge retirements, the big 3 will poach pilots from the regionals until the regionals can't operate anymore, leaving you, Jon Rivoli, and PBR as the three remaining SKW pilots. All 3 of you will each get a Duchess and fly it from SLC to TWF, SGU, and COD. You guys get to pick your own rotations.

With all seriousness though, scope contracts won't change unless severe monetary distress, and that is getting more and more unlikely. Management is proactively parking 50 seaters and props (not many left at DCI), and the 717s will be recapturing many current RJ routes. Recruitment at the Majors will be easy, with pilots, FAs, mechanics, etc fleeing from the regionals, until they are gone. Maybe management wants a bit more control over the product too, and with the 717s they'll be able to do that more.


Bye Bye---General Lee