United Airlines' First Choice: Continental

[Andy]

No, I believe an arbitrator's decision would most likely be very close to relative seniority. I think most UAL pilot would push for DOH however.

I don't think that there will be many pushing for DOH at UAL. I haven't seen anyone suggest that on our ALPA boards. We went through that with USAirways in 2000 and are now the senior pilots DOH-wise compared to CAL.
Some have suggested tall fences, as what happened with NWA/Republic. I oppose fences because it will create too many barriers within the pilot group.
I would be very disappointed with UAL ALPA if they did not propose a reasonable seniority integration from the start. To do otherwise sets the pilots up for unrealistic expectations.
In my case, I'd benefit greatly from DOH; I was hired at UAL in 2000. I don't expect to see my relative seniority change by more than +/- a couple of percent.

I hope that a merger does not occur, but if one were to occur with United, I'd hope it to be with CAL. It makes the most sense in terms of route structures. There is not a great deal of overlap which would mean less cutbacks.

 

[G4G5]

AGAIN, Andy, tell me how it would work with 3 hubs next to each other? They are all within 1 hour flight of each other. Which one would they trim down? What would local politicians think?


You can ROTFLMAO all you want, but it won't work. Again, you are shooting from the hip with NO ammo.

Bye Bye--General Lee

You are once again, wrong. Carty is on record stating that the purchase of TWA will allow AA to off load some of it's ORD traffic to STL.

STL is 225 miles from ORD.

MSP is 290 mies from ORD.

History has shown that this will not stop AA from merging. Having a hub so close to ORD is not an issue for AA

 

[G4G5]

I don't think that there will be many pushing for DOH at UAL. I haven't seen anyone suggest that on our ALPA boards. We went through that with USAirways in 2000 and are now the senior pilots DOH-wise compared to CAL.
Some have suggested tall fences, as what happened with NWA/Republic. I oppose fences because it will create too many barriers within the pilot group.
I would be very disappointed with UAL ALPA if they did not propose a reasonable seniority integration from the start. To do otherwise sets the pilots up for unrealistic expectations.
In my case, I'd benefit greatly from DOH; I was hired at UAL in 2000. I don't expect to see my relative seniority change by more than +/- a couple of percent.

I hope that a merger does not occur, but if one were to occur with United, I'd hope it to be with CAL. It makes the most sense in terms of route structures. There is not a great deal of overlap which would mean less cutbacks.

The biggest stumbling block (after NWA) would be the 747's. UAL/ALPA needs to protect the career projections of their pilots. I could eaisly see something like you refer to but with fences on the 747.

 

[G4G5]

Try to play a spoiler? You mean make us pay more than we should? Ron Allen made that mistake with the Pan Am Europe Routes when he bought them in the early 90s. I don't think Anderson will play that game, and he could always take their bluff and let them have it. There would be soooooo much overlap (from MSP to ORD to DTW----unbelievable), that they would have to either divest a large chunk of one of the hubs, or a lot of routes or slots at each one of them. It just doesn't make sense. It is like if CAL and DL tried to get together, one of us would have to get rid of either their EWR hub or our JFK hub. (and probably the Delta Shuttle too at LGA) Not gonna happen, and not gonna be approved by anyone, especially not the DOJ. They can try if they want, and I doubt Anderson will pay more than he has to.

Do I think everyone else will sit on their hands? No, no I don't. Southwest has stated they wouldn't sit idle, and USAir wants to dance with anyone. I bet there would be a lot of DOJ reviews.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Paid too much?

Wow are you wrong, where would DAL be today without the Pan Am purchase?

Just to be clear. DAL got:
A turn key European operation with JFK hub
Including 30 Eurpoean route authorities
The cash cow NY/DC/BOS Shuttle and associated terminals, slots and gates.
The Frankfurt hub
45 aircraft (while taking less then 700 pilots, out of seniority, no less)

All for $260 million!

Some more FACTS:

Prior to the aquisition of Pan Am. DAL was 86% Domstic. Operating just 13 international routes from 4 hubs (ATL, CVG, MCO and DFW)

Without Pan Am, DAL would have as much European presence as USAir does with little or no east coast presence.

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...an+destinations+1990&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

 

[justin15e]

The biggest stumbling block (after NWA) would be the 747's. UAL/ALPA needs to protect the career projections of their pilots. I could eaisly see something like you refer to but with fences on the 747.

I'll tell you what. UA can keep their 747s in any merger. However, no UA can ever fly one of CAL's future 787s. Deal?

I'm willing to bet the 787s will be around a lot longer than those 747s.

 

[DTW320]

Some more FACTS:

No No NO! Those silly things won't work with the Generally. Now don't bother him with those...his mind (such as it is) is made up!

 

[stillflyn]

I'll tell you what. UA can keep their 747s in any merger. However, no UA can ever fly one of CAL's future 787s. Deal?

I'm willing to bet the 787s will be around a lot longer than those 747s.

That's fine... All airplanes on your property at the time of the merger can be fenced off. I can tell you right now that no arbitrator is going to fence off aircraft that were delivered after the merger takes place. Only existing aircraft will be kept fenced for any real length of time.

All your two year CA seats will be protected on the 737 and we'll probably have some sort of protection with our widebodys.

If you think that your "senior 9 month" FO is going to be slotted in above a 9-10 year UAL FO your crazy!

Stillflyn

 

[General Lee]

No No NO! Those silly things won't work with the Generally. Now don't bother him with those...his mind (such as it is) is made up!

Really? I think he is wrong. I have been told that we paid $1 billion for the routes and hub, and that price was run up by AA. Ron Allen overpaid. But hey, you know everything about Delta. Go back to Duluth.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Paid too much?

Wow are you wrong, where would DAL be today without the Pan Am purchase?

Just to be clear. DAL got:
A turn key European operation with JFK hub
Including 30 Eurpoean route authorities
The cash cow NY/DC/BOS Shuttle and associated terminals, slots and gates.
The Frankfurt hub
45 aircraft (while taking less then 700 pilots, out of seniority, no less)

All for $260 million!

Some more FACTS:

Prior to the aquisition of Pan Am. DAL was 86% Domstic. Operating just 13 international routes from 4 hubs (ATL, CVG, MCO and DFW)

Without Pan Am, DAL would have as much European presence as USAir does with little or no east coast presence.

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...an+destinations+1990&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Really? Are you sure about that? Everyone who I have talked to, and I was not at Delta at the time, says we overpaid thanks to a runup from AA. Ron Allen supposedly overpaid a lot for the routes and terminals. I think your figure is a lot low. Let's ask Tom Goodman, he was there I bet. $260 million is low. I heard it was over $1 billion.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

UAL can keep their 747s. I don't care. BUT we can NOT end up with the UAL scope clause!!!!