United 777 w/MEL'd APU Makes Headlines

[wt219200]

Airline Red tape is amazing. Always someone wanting to show someone else they are in charge. Sounds like the captain was a squared away guy, but the airline gets directly involved in a situation the should let those involved handle, but that would make too much sense.

Get the stairs out
Pull the plane away from the gate
Start the RH Engine
Open the Bleeds and cold soak the cabin
Get 4 or 5 buses
Bring the folks out, put them on the buses and board them on the LH side
Shut the door and be on your way

Is it really that difficult? It might cost 5K to do that, but would it be worth not having the bad press they are getting now? I'd say so

You really suggest they do all that? The flights might be leaving a little late. Where was the ground air hook up? I work the ramp in LAS which gets a little hotter than back east. It was 105 today and it seemed cool. We do get some complaints that it is too hot but the ground air seems to do the job. Other than the above suggestion; which seems a little far fetched, what does anybody suggest?

 

[ksu_aviator]

T' Hell with Procedures!

Well in general the high temps are a little harder to deal with in the Midwest due to the higher humidity, but just try flying out of Phoenix on one of those frigging RJ's, they taxi out on one engine and there is no airflow to passengers until after takeoff, have complained to AWA many times to no avail. :angryfire

Quit complaining and start doing. Something regional pilots don't seem to get is that the PIC has final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. If it is too hot, and potentially dangerous to the passengers, use the second engine, do whatever you have to to get the aircraft cool.

Company rules are guidelines. It is your responsibility to make judgements for the safety of the flight. I know it isn't fun to go against company rules because you'll get a bunch of crap for it. However, that is what your union is for. They should back any captain that uses any means necessary to prevent injury or death of passengers.

I don't mean to rag on the original poster, or regional pilots in general, I just think a point needs to be made. Regionals preach procedures as if if you break procedures you'll be sent to a place worse than hell. To make matters worse, so many regional pilots never truely acted as PIC of an aircraft carrying passengers prior to working for the regional. They just don't have the experience to recognize the sneakily unsafe situations.

Sometimes procedures are not in the best interest of the situation. So when your cabin is so hot that you think you should be paying them for the sauna treatment, start up the other engine.

Just some friendly advice.

BTW..Do you recognize this quote?

"The captain was asked why she closed the throttles prior to touchdown, as the airplane was slow on the approach. She reported that she closed the throttles because it was company procedure to close the throttles at 50 feet."

It is from an NTSB report if that is any help

 

[MJG]

Airline Red tape is amazing. Always someone wanting to show someone else they are in charge. Sounds like the captain was a squared away guy, but the airline gets directly involved in a situation the should let those involved handle, but that would make too much sense.

Get the stairs out
Pull the plane away from the gate
Start the RH Engine
Open the Bleeds and cold soak the cabin
Get 4 or 5 buses
Bring the folks out, put them on the buses and board them on the LH side
Shut the door and be on your way

Is it really that difficult? It might cost 5K to do that, but would it be worth not having the bad press they are getting now? I'd say so

Unfortunately it really IS that difficult. What you suggest sounds great but in reality is not possible. First off you just can't "get the stairs out" or "pull the plane away from the gate" at a place like O'Hare. A 777 sitting in the middle of United's alley would create gridlock, that happens from time to time there anyway and it is not pretty. You could start the engine but in those kinds of temperatures you're not going to get the cabin to an acceptable temperature by just using the packs off of one engine running at idle while sitting on the ground. Also good luck at a place like ORD getting 4-5 busses on short notice. Anything already at the airport for any other purpose would be busy with whatever it's doing at the time, not like they will just stop moving other passengers back and forth and come to the rescue of one poor UAL 777. Finally if you want to see the Feds have a cow, try boarding a 777 through airstairs, in the middle of the ramp at one of the busiest airports in the world, with the other engine, the one that is the same size as a 737 fuselage, running the whole time.

 

[Motive Flow]

Getting 4-5 busses? Yeah, that's gonna happen. Don't know about DEN, but in IAD you're lucky to get a wheelchair within 45 minutes of arriving at the gate (after calling for it when in-range, on the ground, at the gate, etc., etc.).

Thinking outside the box is great (even us dirty, rotten, under-qualified regional PIC's do it sometimes ), but you usually just end up banging your head against the wall that is Airline Operations.

 

[Full of Foehn]

GPU is for electricity only, no air, for that you need an air conditioning unit, you know those big yellow hoses you see hooked up to the bottom of aircraft. This IS a serious problem.

I curious to know why airliners/RJs are engineered that way. The plane I fly, albeit much smaller, is capable of having a GPU engergize the air conditioner; the vapor cooling cycle system as it is called, runs on electricity as do the blowers. Do the airliners lack a/c because the volume of air in the cabin would require too many units or too big a cooling unit to make it practical? Certainly, this is not the problem with the RJs. Is it a weight saving measure? Thanks in advance.

FoF

 

[Guitar rocker]

UAL should have known better than to do that.

 

[MJG]

I curious to know why airliners/RJs are engineered that way. The plane I fly, albeit much smaller, is capable of having a GPU engergize the air conditioner; the vapor cooling cycle system as it is called, runs on electricity as do the blowers. Do the airliners lack a/c because the volume of air in the cabin would require too many units or too big a cooling unit to make it practical? Certainly, this is not the problem with the RJs. Is it a weight saving measure? Thanks in advance.

FoF

Basically I guess it boils down to size. The shear volume of an airline sized aircraft's cabin, even a "regional jet", it just too large for any kind of electrical air conditioning unit to be effective without paying a high price in either weight or electrical consumption. Therefore high volumes of pneumatic air are required for heating and cooling the cabin. Those can only be produced by the engines or the APU. The engines or APU can send bleed air to the pneumatic air cycle machines (PACs) which are capable of cooling/heating high volumes of air which is then pumped into the cabin for pressurization and air conditioning.

 

[91100 100 set]

When I was at Continental Express we averaged one death a year in IAH from heat related issues in the cabin.

You serious Clark, one a year?

 

[yournextFO]

Largely weight and maintenance...the original 707's and DC8's used to have vapor (freon) cooling units, but they were heavy, maintenance intensive and used a lot of electricity...

 

[jman90]

Weight is the main issue. Think about lifting a window-mounted room air conditioner. If the cabin volume is small the plane may have a vapor cycle air conditioner. Larger cabin planes are air conditioned by the aircraft's air cycle machines which also pressurize the cabin. They are also called PACs for Pressurization and Air Conditioning. They need air from an engine/apu/or huffer cart (which seem hard to find when needed)

 

[FlyPig]

A/c

Most transport category and regional aircraft have the ability to run the packs off a huffer cart. For fuel savings your companies are probably urging the use of jetbridge power when cooling isn't required. With the APU deferred in hot weather you may think the only option is the AC cart, but ask your mechanics how to run the packs off the huffer and by using jetbridge power or the GPU. It's not in your QRH or CFM but the good wrenches know how.

Another thing is the perennial windshield overheat problems. Your checklist may say to turn it on before engine start, but you really only need it before takeoff. Save yourself a return to the gate by not putting heat to your already hot windshield until you need it.

I second the guy who mentioned the mishap regarding closing the throttles at 50 feet while already too slow. It's called judgement and it trumps procedure any day.

 

[Dangerkitty]

You serious Clark, one a year?

Yes Cousin Eddie I am serious.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

A while back, FLL terminal 3 (now terminal 4) had a fire alarm and
evacuation onto the ramp. The terminal was full of elderly and they
were dropping like flys on the 95F 95% humidity ramp. I think we
lost 7 of them that day.

Not knowing what resources were available, I can't judge the
capt.

CE

 

[time builder]

I work the ramp in LAS which gets a little hotter than back east. It was 105 today and it seemed cool.

Yes, but it's a "dry heat." LOL. I can't count how many times I've briefed my PAX this summer that we just need to get in the air quickly and it'll cool off 20 degrees. VIVA LAS VEGAS.