Unions

[bobbysamd]

See post above

Av8instyle's post is an example of what I'm talking about.

I thought he was talking about Mesa until I saw the 1950s reference.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Some of the posters attempts here are not to get rid of unions, but to get rid of the dishonest one sided tacticts. ALPA does excellent things in safety and worker discrimination areas. But they deffinitely do not treat every dues paying individual fairly. They only work with the 5 mainline groups that help them manipulate their perceived outcome. Unions are a good thing when the Union is honest and actually reflects the current will of the members and not the chosen few. As in the above example of the part timers, where is their union? They are paying dues but get no representation. Sound familliar? If we were working in an open shop, I could understand as you would have the right to pay or not to pay dues. But when it is a closed shop and if I dont pay dues I will be fired, I have a big problem with that. Additionally, by the life of me, I cant figure out how the clsoed shop system can exist in todays anti discrimination agenda. You would be surprised how many people that work in the closed shop system dont know that they could be fired for refusing to pay dues. How is that considered a legal monopoly. More like an oligopoly. I have no problem paying for equal and fair representation (as promised in the ALPA by laws), but darnit, I also expect it. There is an old saying, what comes arround, goes arround, and ALPA is slowly tearing itself apart. You can only lie and use deceitfull tacticts for so long befor things catch up and backfire on you. There is no reason that ALPA cant set up a regional devision staffed by regional pilots to fight for regional issues. Even though the regionals might not get everything they want, at least guys like me would feel that we were being represented. ALPA will not do that because they have no interest what so ever to represent the regionals as history has shown. Heck, it never even crossed their minds! Personally I would just like to see ALPA clean house, forget about bribing the lobbiests, take a look at the changing industry and set up an agenda that will bennifit everyone to include working with mangement so the companies can be as profitable as possible. Ya that is a long shot, but I can dream cant I??

 

[FlyinBrian]

Devil's Advocate

Those that know me know that I typically support unionization among airline pilots, however, Let me just throw something out there in response to the above post....

Suppose I throw my entire life savings and all of my worldly effort to become the absolute best turd polisher in the world. I can polish a turd better than anyone. I spent more time and effort learning to polish turds than doctors and airline pilots combined spend in training. Am I somehow entitled to be paid a huge salary because of the time, effort, and money that I have thrown into learning the art of turd polishing?

Basically I reject the argument that airline pilots are entitled to more money as a function of the considerable amount of time and effort that they put into becoming airline pilots. I am pro-union (in the pilot industry at least) but sometimes that conflicts with other beliefs of mine, particularly when it comes to capitalism. The price of goods and services should be determined by supply and demand. And let's face it, the supply of pilot labor is huge. Many people would like to do this job. The union plays a very important role in keeping flying safe. One thing that must be done to ensure safety is to make sure that each pilot an airline hires meets minimum experiecne and training requirements. Doing this shrinks the eligible supply of labor, and helps justify an improved wage. But to argue that the time and effort people spend should affect their wage doens't jive in a free market.

 

[av8instyle]

...keep polishing

You say you are pro union, but your turd polishing scheme "doesn't jive". Let ME throw something out there:

You go ask a doctor or lawyer if they think they are overpaid. I'll tell you that nearly every one of them will tell you that the amount of training, time and money invested, not to mention the motivation factor justifies the pay. It's exactly the same for an airline pilot. It's not hard to fly a C-150 or like equipment, but you start getting into the high tech equipment of the current airline/military fleet and I will tell you that not everyone can do it. Therefore I will say that if I could hit Randy Johnson I'd love to be in the majors and make millions. But not everyone can do it. I have flown with some very good light airplane pilots that would fail at the regional level. I've flown with some very good regional pilots that would, and have failed at the major level. And, oh by the way, you ever heard of the US Air Force Academy? Some of the sharpest people in the world (I'm not one of them). Of the ones that make it through the Academy, not all of them make it to flight school, and of the ones that do, about 20-25% don't get their wings. And the ones that do, about 80% don't get to fighters.

So, my friend, I'd ask you to reconsider comparing a highly skilled profession such as doctor, lawyer, Airline Pilot to your finely honed art of turd polishing.

 

[FlyinBrian]

My intent was not to bring doctors and pilots down to the level of turd polishers. It was to illustrate the fact that the time, effort, and ultimately the level of skill that you develop cannot alone be used to justify additional pay in a free market. I am an airline pilot, and I hate to bruise anyone's ego, but our job is not that hard. It does take a whole lot of specialized training, but most people who can get a college degree are capable of developing the skill that it takes to be an airline pilot.

Doctors are paid what the market allows. There is a very high demand for their services, (much more than that of airline pilots as your life and health seldom depend upon gettin to Boston on time.) and a very small amount of people who are willing to go through the amount and type of training it takes to become a successful doctor (Much more than what it takes to become an airline pilot).

If you can hit Randy Johnson, you have a skill for which there is very low supply, and also a very great demand. That is why you are worth so much. Not because of the amount of work or training you have gone through. The dynamics of supply and demand that apply to pilot labor are very different. There is a great supply and a moderate demand.

The only way that the amount of time and effort you put into breaking into any profession should affect your pay is by the manner in which it makes you part of a smaller labor pool for which there is a large demand.

My apologies if my turd polishing analogy offended, I can see how it might do that. My intent was to offer a ridiculous example to illustrate that unless you have a skill for which there is a small supply great demand, it doesn't matter how much time and effort it took to acquire such a skill. (i.e. there is zero demand for turd polishers, and a ton of people who could do it.)

 

[Pilotwife]

FlyingBrain - no offense taking to the ananlogy. I agree with you. My brother is a firefighter and he puts as much work (training and dedication) into his professional career as my husband does for his. He is also responsible for technical and expensive equipment. In looking at the contributions of all persons who work in our society I believe some wages have gotten out of hand while others have lagged behind. This insane nonsense will stop but at what price - or has the price been paid . . . Supply and demand should rule and I believe it will by way of the regionals, charter providers and franctionals.

 

[skykid]

It is interesting to see how polarized the posters seem to be on unions and scope in this and other threads. The answers lie somewhere in the middle and the key is to understand both sides. Av8instyle - you are exactly right. Airline pilots deserve good wages when you consider the sacrifices and time spent to reach the major level. FlyinBrian - you couldn't be more right. If plenty of pilots, doctors, whoever, are ready to do the work cheaper, its gonna get done cheaper no matter how long you trained to get there. By the way, flying in & out of ORD is just as difficult (or easy, depending on your perspective) with 30 passengers or 230 passengers. More responsibility with 230 pax - sure, but the guy with 30 better be just as dedicated.

The majors are in danger of pricing themselves right out of the market. Example - UAL's pilot contract. It was perfect for 1999 when the company made 1.6 bil. Now the employees, esp. owner employees, need to share in the hard times. ALPA is not willing to lead the way here and I think that is extremely unrealistic.

I see alot of posts that refer to 70 and 100 seat RJs taking over the major's narrow body flying. I don't doubt that might happen to some degree, but it will be at low wages. That's a shame too - it ought to mean alot to have that much responsibility in your hands. The pax are counting on you to be well rested, sober, highly trained, and on top of your game. You have to be medically qualified, and pass a checkride frequently to operate that equipment. Commercial pilots deserve a serious wage.

My opinion - not only is ALPA not as concerned with regional pilot's welfare, they are focused only on the TOP echelon of the major's pilots. ALPA needs to concentrate on getting everybody earning what they are worth and the scope issue will fade. As far as one list airlines - if it helps everybody then bring it on. The arguement that the majors will be lowering the bar is silly. Look at the safety records of the airlines concerned - they are outstanding.

 

[publisher]

follow up

I was using Delta as an historical situation of a company that, for the most part, had good labor/management relations.

The fact that no major carrier can withstand a strike anymore, cannot even stand a slowdown anymore, forces them into decisions they regret. The contracts for the most part deal with an expanding situation, not a contracting one.

The problems come because you cannot walk in and represent a regional when you have negotiated a flow down in their major carrier.

This is not a matter of whether unions are good or bad, it is one of whether unons can become too big and too powerful and represent different levels of companies.

 

[Wiggums]

Pilots Wife - I think firefighters are a fair comparison to airline pilots, but not in the way your thinking. If firefighter's pay were subject to supply and demand then the would be paid quite a bit less. For example, at one the large departments in this city they had over 200 applicants for six positions. The supply is defiantly more then the demand. The only reason the pay stays fair is because firefighting is paid by the government, not private industry. If supply/demand completely ruled then both your brother and husband would be paid less.

Tim47SIP – I agree with some of your points about ALPA, however, I think you may need to look more to your local MEC for representation, rather then ALPA national. Also, union are supposed to be a monopoly, that is how they work. If they didn't have a monopoly on labor then they couldn't pressure management into better working conditions. However, in some ways ALPA has gone down the wrong road, allowing pilot groups to be whipsawed by management and compete against each other. Hopefully RJDC will get things back on track.

 

[ifly4food]

Re: follow up

I was using Delta as an historical situation of a company that, for the most part, had good labor/management relations.

The fact that no major carrier can withstand a strike anymore, cannot even stand a slowdown anymore, forces them into decisions they regret. The contracts for the most part deal with an expanding situation, not a contracting one.

The problems come because you cannot walk in and represent a regional when you have negotiated a flow down in their major carrier.

This is not a matter of whether unions are good or bad, it is one of whether unons can become too big and too powerful and represent different levels of companies.

I gave you a similar reply on another thread.
Your replies smack of management sour grapes. I don't care how big a gun they percieved was to their heads, they didn't have to sign. They could have pushed for arbitration, a PEB, or even rolled the dice with a strike. They chose the easy route and signed. Once you sign, a contract is a contract. They have no business to whine now that things have changed. Nobody could predict 9/11 but the economy was already slowing that "summer of discontent" (love that one). They still chose to sign. Too late now.
A contract is a contract.