Union thoughts...

[W8N4UAL]

I've read some of the recent threads that contain the usual paths of conversation regarding unions and their influence on the industry.

Can someone help explain to me why traditional unions (and I'm a proud furloughed ALPA member) consistently reject work rules that reward individual performance? When the first ERP was in the works at UAL, one of the prizes the union brought back to the masses was a difference in how pilots would be paid schedule vs. block, with the change resulting in an increase in pay for no more work done. It astounded me that we celebrated this when the company was losing huge sums of cash every time the wheels went in the wells.

As a proud new father of an 8 month old (thanks, 9/11, at least I get to watch my son grow up...now if only I can feed him too) I'm learning the importance of encouraging desirable behavior and discouraging undesirable behavior (I'm not equating airline pilots to 8 month olds, although when the hotel van isn't on time the comparison is tempting). The work rule mentioned above was in place at the regional where I flew before UAL and it made me sad to watch captains fly at 2/3 cruise speed just to get the extra tenth or two (unless it's the go home leg, than it's max blast...so much for customer empathy). It strikes me that these work rules serve to reward undesirable, ineffecient behavior.

Here's the root of my thought: either A) pilots truly are in a position to direct the chorus (fuel, catering, flight attendants, maintenance, appropriate altitudes for wind, etc) and should be appropriately rewarded for good performance in the things they claim to be the final authority over, or B) we don't have that much control, shouldn't be held accountable, and (gasp) shouldn't be paid as much. I see option A in line operations and believe I deserve the resulting pay (not the pay da Massa hands down, but the pay my union negotiates, thank you).

Should I have gone to Southwest because the mentality I speak of just won't ever come to fruition at UAL in the foreseeable future?

W8N

 

[tredding@swa]

W8N(for a long time)4UAL.....?

You might still be able to come to SWA.

Seems to me that you could apply now (assuming you have the 73 type), interview, hopefully get hired, and be on property at SWA a couple of years before you are called back at UAL..... assuming that you are EVER called back by UAL?????

No offense to your loyalty and all.... I have long believed that UAL had the worst employee moral and the highest costs of any airline in the industry. I does not surprise me one bit that UAL is having the problems it is facing.... it was bound to happen, regardless of 9/11.

Good luck with your search for work.... it is a tough time for all of us in the pilot profession. The next few years will be interesting for sure....

Regards - Tred

 

[MLS]

UAL left you and everyone high and dry.

W8N,

Not to get off track too much but you say you should of gone to Southwest. Something tells me you were hired at UAL with virtually no PIC time. Looking at your total time you must of been handed the job on a silver platter. Perhaps you were an intern or daddy got you hired. I'm also guessing you flew the Dash at some regional but never upgraded to get that much needed 1000 PIC for Southwest or to make yourself marketable for anyone else. Don't get me wrong but it just pi$$es me off that United hired up to the last minute, even prior to 9/11 and then dumped you people like a bad sack of eggs. They have no regard for their employees, to them you are INDESPENSIBLE, to them it's just business. I have many many friends that left to UAL after giving up very stable flying jobs only to not even make it to IOE and then be out on the street a couple weeks later. What kind of company toys with people's lives like that. Don’t give me the usual line about how 9/11 prompted this whole thing cause that's just plain absurd. They were hurting real bad before, and the rumors were flying about possible layoffs prior to 9/11. Frankly to them this was the greatest excess to kick you people out the door. If UAL had one fraction the vision SWA has and really cared for their employees like SWA does, they would have controlled their hiring in the first place and not over hire pilots just to send them home later with nothing. Just plain bad taste. It's not just United that did this maybe all the majors should look at SWA's "employees come first attitude", after all how many did SWA let go? Zero, Ziltch, Not One.

What I think you should do W8N:

Get the type using the WIA benefit
Get a 1000 PIC turbine (Some how)
Go to SWA and never look back at UAL cause this wont be your first furlough with them.

Okay fellas flame away

 

[Fast Eddie]

Lest we forget the Pilot Union at United and the rest of the employeees had a large chunk of control there.
I blame alot on the Union Leadership(oxymoron). I think United/Alpa has some members at the top that have lost sight of reality. As one of them was recently quoted when asked about the present contract as alluding to having "wrung every last golden egg out of the "goose". When you get this kind of
Economic" free for all"going on it's no wonder the Capital Markets
punish the company. The Shareholders and low seniority numbered employees take the big hit, the senior guys anywhere
near retirement "bail out, cash in hand and leave the "smoldering
ruins to be sorted out by Junior members. In this case I make the
metaphor that United is like the "Titanic" after having run into
an Ice-berg(9/11 and the ensuing recession). This latest play
for Federal aid is window dressing on the real problem. The
ship is going down and the Band appears to be "playing on"
topside. The smart people are heading for the "lifeboats"

 

[banned username 1]

While there's more than enough blame to go around, it's easy to pontificate with the gift of 20/20 hindsight. Although nobody could forsee the events of 9-11, true, there was a recession looming that nobody wanted to acknowledge nor take credit for either. Looking at the demographics of the seniority list, the massive hiring of late would have been more than offset by the number of retirees going out the door. Recessions of late have been little more than slowdowns of a quarter or two and strategic planners believed this one to be little different. And when I allude to blame, I point to society and business in general.

While there is credit to be given to SWA and their model, for their promoters to believe that they are invincible is folly and falling victim to a poor sense of history. Every business, just like every living organism has a distinct set of stages in it's existence. Birth, growth, flourish, decline, and yes- eventually death. I can remember the heady days of not that long ago on this very forum where UAL, DAL, AA, et al were the not topic and a position at SWA was more suited for, shall we describe them as a "botique" carrier where it was a good fit for a pilot who desired that type of operation. Now, the worm has turned and it's SWA's turn to shine. Enjoy the ride. It's fun to be "in the saddle". Just remember though that it can be a painful landing if if you're on your high horse.

FYI- it's good to be indespensible- that's what you want to be. What you don't want to be is expendable.

 

[MLS]

You are correct sir

Yes thank you UAL78 for the correction. Expendable is what I meant. Either it was a long day or maybe I need that IQ test mentioned in another post.

 

[Bake]

UAL78

Just wondering what your thoughts are on UAL, AA, etc? If your life cycle of typical business models holds true (Birth, growth, flourish, decline, death). Where do these companies sit and what will happen in the near future. I'm not disagreeing with you or doubting your arguement, just curious what you think?

Thanks BAke

 

[banned username 1]

The answer is simple: adapt or die. Darwinism is as alive in this industry as it is in the organic world. It's a monopoly game and the secret is how adept you can be to read the tea leaves and provide leadership to the company. At one time, the giants of aviation were Pan Am, TWA, etc. People pointed to them as outward agents of America- spanning the globe. How times can change and with it, the fortunes of a company who is not either quick enough, smart enough, ot willing enough to re-invent itself to match the current environment.

What will happen to the carriers in question? Only time will tell. But it will hinge on precisely what I've outlined above. The next 10 years will tell.

UAL78

 

[sfomarc]

UAL78, I couldnt agree with you more about adapting and Darwinism. I had always wanted to be an ariline pilot having flown on the old National, Eastern, and Pan Am, those truely were the days. But like you said they did not adapt. Instead they bought hotels and got into a lot of other businesses taking resources away from the airline and distracting their focus from their business.

Being an employee of the number one "peanut" pushing airline I feel that we have not only stayed the course, but have adapted to obstacles on the course. Thinking ahead without losing sight of the goals, and most importantly not taking anything for granted. I think the company does a pretty good job of instilling this into us but they too are not perfect. We have our problems but we also know how to treat the goose well.

Hopefully everyone will be back to work in time to come, I just hope it is sooner than laer.

 

[Fast Eddie]

UAL78


I think your time frame is unrealistic. This industry is transforming
itself rapidly as we write. A bankrupcy filing at any one of the big three UAL, DElta, AA coupled with continued recession,and probable Iraq II will accelerate the transformation to less than
5 years. Big airlines can't shrink their way to profitability.
We could see the return to the days of "Brass Knuckle"
cash flow ticket pricing which will be one of the main accelerants.
What the government will do if we have a couple of big carriers
fail will provide a good clue to the future of the industry.
The present administration may use this enviroment to
rewrite the present contracts and establish a new wage/productivity datum. The reference point will be The SWA.
JEt Blues, ATA, Airtran etc.

Fasten your shoulder harness