Union theory/observation

[lookup]

(honest question, not flamebait)

So I am reading the different threads regarding RJs, Mainline vs Regional, Us vs Them, etc etc etc.....

One poster made some comments about how he felt that ALPA was basically run by "mainline" guys looking out for "mainline" interest firsts. I will take that at face value since no one challenged him on it.

So, assuming that ALPA is, in fact, "lead" by the old timers at the "mainlines", is it possible that the vast majority of them are ex-military? (btw, I do sincerely appreciate their service)

So, is it possible that, assuming my theory is correct, the guys who "paid their dues" by working in the military system want to see the regional "non-military" guys pay their dues too?

It would seem that the regional guys are paying their dues in large denominations, maybe because they are not as likely to be shot at (unless you domicile in DC). The appaling wages seem to be tolerated because of the "end game" (777 captain pay). What happens if after 8 years at mainline, something bad happens (medical, etc) and it all falls apart.. You have suffered for nothing.

Being "willing to work for less" as someone else put it, does not really fit. What are your choices...? The only way in most industries to raise payrates is to create a shortage of workers, or control the available source of workers (... what do they call that....oh yeah, a UNION?) OR, you can grow the company so much that they need more aircraft...... Either get more people to travel by air or steal them from your competitors.

Anyway, since you ALPA guys spend so much time arguing over crap like "taking our jobs, scopes clauses, mainline vs regional, etc, etc, etc", you miss the chance to build the unity that is needed to really control the source of workers. Perhaps you should focus on growing the business.

Comments like "slobing on management's willy" or whatever was posted, is such a great example of why you guys are going to be in the same plight in 10 years that you are now. Are some managers morons, or worse, dishonest? hell yes! Are some pilots primadonnas and want the world handed to them on a platter? hell yes! But let's not lose track of the fact that both sides are humans(most of them) trying to make a living and most are actually good people.

It is easy to sit back and bitch... "becuase that is what we do" (writes another poster)... Well guess what, bitching doesn't put food on the table... solving business problems and making customers happy does !!!


/rant on/
In the airline food chain, I am top weenie dog (business frequent flyer) and guess what... this union "us versus them" bullsh$t attitude is rubbing off on some of you and it shows to the paying public. Piss enough of us off and we stop traveling... what then Einstein? We are already tired of being treated like terrorists by the TSA, don't let your negative attitude show when we get to the gate/plane/my seat/etc........

(with fairness to many great flight crews, I have heard a fair number of very sincere "thanks for flying"... not the "blah blah blah, thank you for flying" scripts... one AA captain even went so far as to stand in the galley looking back at the FULL MD-88 he "owned" for that leg and unscripted thanked everyone for their trust and business. It was nice, if a bit cheesy. You don't have to kiss my a$$, just acknowledge that we matter and you are glad we are together for the trip..... you know, positive attitude and stuff) Oh wait.. crap.. cargo and mail is what pays for the trip anyway... okay, so we are second most important.

Sorry for the rant....

 

[Skank]

Concerning one of your theories, there are scores of military guys at the regionals. The major-military/regional-civilian analogy is not very accurate. Otherwise, I hear what you're saying.
Also, you consider yourself (business traveler) as the top of the food chain. This may have been true in the recent past, but with so few of you flying, another part of the food chain will take your place. Just how all of that will shake out remains to be seen. God luck to all.

 

[lookup]

Concerning one of your theories, there are scores of military guys at the regionals. The major-military/regional-civilian analogy is not very accurate. Otherwise, I hear what you're saying.
Also, you consider yourself (business traveler) as the top of the food chain. This may have been true in the recent past, but with so few of you flying, another part of the food chain will take your place. Just how all of that will shake out remains to be seen. God luck to all.

Gotcha... I had been told that many of the military guys had enough time to be competitive at the majors directly. Thanks for the info.

You make my point so well about us business travelers. We cut back and look what it does to the industry. The vast majority of the pleasure travelers are at deep discounted tickets, and many will fly on carriers like SWA to save a few bucks.

The existing structure can't survive the downturn, and yet somehow SWA just keeps trucking along. Realistically, the business travelers are slowly returning and be glad. We will return a whole lot faster than the majors can "re-invent" themselves. Just don't piss too many off in the short term. See my rant about DAL as an example of what not to do. I still travel, just not on DAL.

(my "top dog" comment is a bit tounge in cheek) actually no one group can survive without the other. A plane loaded with my type don't go far without flight crews.... We just happen to pay the bills (along with the cargo).

 

[Timebuilder]

Maybe you could "distill" the rant down to a question. Any number of us would be willing to share our opinions. It's what we do here.

It's true, the business traveller used to be the bread and butter of what we have called the "major" airlines. Not only is there less business flying, but a large amount has moved over to the fractional ownership programs. The other passengers who contine to put up with the invasive searches, unreasonable rules, and long delays are buying tickets over the internet, cutting ticket revenues to unheard of low levels.

The level of ALPA (and other union names) mainline members coming from the military has been in decline over the past twenty-five years. Certainly, they want to preserve their jobs and lifestyle; that's what unions do. Whether or not this will continue to be effective is a good question, indeed.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Of course pilots care about the customers, whether they are sending freight or flying themselves. I'm not sure, however, how our disagreements with some of our brothers and our union affects your flying experience.

I do know one thing, without the union your flight would be FAR less safe than it is now. Thanks again for flying.

 

[Timebuilder]

I get it. "FAR" less safe, as in ALPA's push for increased safety related regulations.

Maybe they should make that a part of their press releases.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Timebuilder

The level of ALPA (and other union names) mainline members coming from the military has been in decline over the past twenty-five years.

The reason for this is simple. Once Clinton took office, the number of mil pilots produced by the Armed Forces went to a trickle. When I went to the U.S. Army's flight scool in 1986/87, they were putting over 1400 pilots through a year (does not include foreign). During the mid to late 90's, less than 300, a couple years were just over a hundred. This was true in all branches of service. Today we are up to 780 pilots and 2004 will produce over twice that number(U.S. Army stats). So, for the next several years, there will be very few mil guys to pick, but 10 years from now, those numbers will start to come up to prior Clinton levels.

 

[Timebuilder]

I am aware of what you are saying.

My friends from my academy days are getting their first or second star right now, and the damage done to the military under Carter and Clinton are often topics of discussion.

It's a shame.

 

[lookup]

Thanks for the input and comments....

Business to fractions: Sure some are making that move, but many companies can't make that model work. My company has too many people going too many places for a frac or direct flight department to work. Airlines are the only reasonable answer, unless you have gold faucets in the wash room, then you get your frac share.

Internet tickets: Yeah that is a real catch 22 for the airlines. Empty seats are bad, but are they worse than cheap tickets...? I would submit that assuming a positive travel experience, cheap tickets can perhaps get people flying that might not otherwise fly (personal or really small business). If the experience is really bad, they might not come back often. The Internet tickets are so restrictive they don't seem to work for business travelers that I know. We need flexibility, which the airlines have been smart to not allow on Internet tickets.

Unions: Certainly they should fight for good working environments, great training, and reasonable pay. But somewhere along the line they allowed a rift to develop and management seems to be playing it like a fiddle. I thought the AE vs AA issues were bad enough, but dam, DAL and it's regionals make that look tame. As a business traveler, I may not be privy directly to the ugliness, but I promise you it affects people's overall attitude and how they interact with the people around them. Us vs them (regardless of groups) is a bad thing.

I think most of you go into this because you love flying and travel. I just wish that showed through more. You can hear it in the intercom calls, see it on a F/As face, feel it as the plane is flown (I can at least). Love of work shows in all you do. I want that for all of you! I will never have it (in the majors that is). Sure, I can fly banners and jumpers on the weekends, but alas, I am just a wanna be pilot.

Here is a closing question....
How should the top majors "re-invent" themselves to survive the next two decades?

Thanks for the dialog.

 

[Timebuilder]

This being my last post of the year, I will be brief.

The "majors" are already re-inventing themselves, by replacing their traditional high cost aircraft with lower cost aircraft flown by lower cost crews.

The days of the high pay captain will continue for a whaile, but there will be far fewer of those jobs to be had in the future.