Union Question

[777_Jackpot]

There is a reason why the vast majority of airline jobs in the US are Unionized and its not because pilots love unions.

I would agree there is a reason why the vast majority of airline jobs are unionized, but I have to disagree with your reasoning as to why. I think it is much more likely that they are unionized because they started unionized. But as mentioned earlier in this thread they have out lived there usefulness and now are a financial hemorrhage to every body they occupy. I also think people on here should stop using the term "Union" when describing the association that they belong to. The group of people with a common goal that describes a union is nonexistent in the coffers of ALPA which respond only to the biggest contributors. In fact having an ALPA for DAL, UAL, ASA, etc. contradicts the association’s mission statement: "the collective interests of all pilots in commercial aviation". I fail to see the relationship between what is good for a United Airlines and what is good for a Comair. Don't get me wrong, I think a collective organization of pilots is prudent, but it is only practical on a more localized scale such as what is found at Skywest. Only then can each pilot group bargain for their collective best interests.

 

[Soverytired]

Personally, my biggest gripe with unions is that they serve the institution of the union first, and the needs of the membership second. Most of the time, their needs pretty much coincide, but the problems start when you get a large union like ALPA that has to represent many groups with mutually competing goals.

That said . . . unions that are too small have no bargaining power, and I'm not aware of anyone who's come up with a better solution to deal with airlines that are abusive to their pilot group. Once you've been in the biz for a decade or so and see what management is capable of, you'll probably understand this better.

Maybe the regionals shouldn't even be allowed in ALPA? Radical, I know, but they're not really airlines anyway, and it leads to conflict of interest problems. Ah . . . but this will never happen, because the INSTITUTION of ALPA is best served by having as many dues paying members as possible.

You can become a "due paying non-member" if you like. You'll still have to pay for the cost the union spent negotiating your contract since you benefit from it (fair). Course, they usually say that 100% of your dues is for your contract negotiation (BS).

Probably better just to go to a non-union shop if it really bothers you that much.
​

 

[quinnlake]

I would agree there is a reason why the vast majority of airline jobs are unionized, but I have to disagree with your reasoning as to why. I think it is much more likely that they are unionized because they started unionized. But as mentioned earlier in this thread they have out lived there usefulness and now are a financial hemorrhage to every body they occupy. I also think people on here should stop using the term "Union" when describing the association that they belong to. The group of people with a common goal that describes a union is nonexistent in the coffers of ALPA which respond only to the biggest contributors. In fact having an ALPA for DAL, UAL, ASA, etc. contradicts the association’s mission statement: "the collective interests of all pilots in commercial aviation". I fail to see the relationship between what is good for a United Airlines and what is good for a Comair. Don't get me wrong, I think a collective organization of pilots is prudent, but it is only practical on a more localized scale such as what is found at Skywest. Only then can each pilot group bargain for their collective best interests.

How have unions "outlived their usefullness"? Where do you work? Do pay issues affect you? Have you ever been called on the carpet? Lost you're medical?

Their are issue on the national level that alpa favors the major airlines. But that is not the same issue.

 

[CopilotDoug]

If ALPA fails to stop Foreign owenrship then we are all screwed... and it won't matter...

If? ALPA is nothing but a speedbump in this whole political process.

Personally, my biggest gripe with unions is that they serve the institution of the union first, and the needs of the membership second.​

I agree, Soverytired. ALPA national does have its own interests to look out for. Maybe dues could be more effectively put to use by going with in-house representation?​

Only then can each pilot group bargain for their collective best interests.

I agree, 777. I understand Rez's position on trying to fix ALPA but the problems run too deep it's beyond repair.

 

[777_Jackpot]

How have unions "outlived their usefulness"? Where do you work? Do pay issues affect you? Have you ever been called on the carpet? Lost you're medical?

Don't get me wrong, ALPA assisted in "fixing" several safety related problems since the 30's, but they have out lived their usefulness when those problems, mainly safety related, were largely removed from the industry. Now their main duties have been reduced to, as you have point out, representing pilots during disciplinary action and contract negotiations. Both of which, and including the items I didn't mention, can be, and are, being executed more efficiently and effectively with non-ALPA representation. How long did it take to negotiate ASA's new contract?

Pay issues? Everyone wants more money and therefore has pay issues, and not limited to the airline industry. But when the company doesn't have the flexibility to compensate for adverse market conditions, the company as a whole suffers. Sometimes pay cuts have to happen, that is business. But, hopefully the company wasn't paying their employees salaries that were unsustainable in the INEVITABLE downturn in the aviation industry. Perhaps then, they wouldn't need to take a pay cut in the first place. Ask a Skywest pilot how unsatisfied they are with their paychecks, 401K, stock purchase plans etc. I'm sure several pilots on FI would love to have a SWA paycheck, which has increased responsibly, only after (and not before) the company as a whole has benefited from success. More importantly, both have not taken pay cuts.

As for being called on the carpet, no I haven't been. Just the way I like it. First, I try not to do things that would necessitate being called out for. But, if an event transpired that my judgment was called into question, I would hope I had a valid, logical and peer accepted reason in my defense. Advocacy is just another ALPA function that could be handled just as effectively if not better by in house representation.

Their are issue on the national level that ALPA favors the major airlines. But that is not the same issue.

As REX said, ALPA favors ALPA before ANY airline. Then they look after the airline that benefits ALPA most, regardless of the airlines classification (ironically...ALPA once again looking out for ALPA). Ask a US Airways Pilot, or an American pilot how valuable ALPA was for them.

I’m not saying that pilots shouldn’t be represented by a body that represents them. I am saying however, that they should be represented by a body that represents their best interests only, eg. SWAPA.

 

[quinnlake]

triple 7, you're previous posts dealt with unions in general. If you're problem is with alpa, I get you're point, well said.

 

[BigMeat]

Skywest gets its work rules and other things based on what union workers have negotiated previously. Thats what they base it on. What there peers have. From there they can do better or worse. Either way without unions Skywest wouldnt have what it has today.

 

[labbats]

I've been reading this board for years and the minute someone mentions ALPA in a negative way they get scolded. It's time for a reality check.

ALPA is a joke. Unions are not. Period.

Every airline should have a union, but not ALPA. They should have an in-house union that reflects the needs and wants of the particular pilot group negotiating a deal with a particular management group.

Say what you will about AA, but their union has teeth and the needs of their members front and center. You can't say the same about ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Say what you will about AA, but their union has teeth and the needs of their members front and center. You can't say the same about ALPA.

What has the APA done that is so wonderful..


I guess ALPA is useless... it solved all those pesky safety problems from the 30's....

are there no more safety problems?

 

[CopilotDoug]

I guess ALPA is useless... it solved all those pesky safety problems from the 30's...

are there no more safety problems?

Yes, and there always will be. It doesn't justify supporting ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes, and there always will be. It doesn't justify supporting ALPA.

So a pilot who is criminalized should be left alone?
.....

Pilots Lepore and Paladino are furloughees from large commercial airlines. The Air Line Pilots Association was one of few voices lobbying for their release. Though pleased with the decision to allow the pilots to return to the United States, the association remains unhappy at the way the men were publicly condemned by certain Brazilian authorities and does not believe that the filing of criminal charges was justified. Not only because there's scant evidence of wrongdoing, but also because of the precedent set by such action.

In Japan, in a case condemned by ALPA and other organizations, Japan Airlines Capt. Koichiu Takamoto was prosecuted for the death of a flight attendant aboard JAL Flight 706 in 1997. The aircraft encountered strong turbulence at 25,000 feet, and it was alleged that Takamoto responded improperly, inducing violent oscillations. He was found not guilty.


"I find it ironic," an ALPA spokesperson told me, "that some of the same Western countries that decry things like the death penalty or the excesses of some forms of Islamic law still have this medieval attitude toward imposing criminal punishment on people for accidents."

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/12/15/askthepilot213/index.html

 

[CopilotDoug]

So a pilot who is criminalized should be left alone?http://

No, and that's why they have Aviation Attorneys. What was ALPA's role in the South American case aside from lipservice to boost their image?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No, and that's why they have Aviation Attorneys. What was ALPA's role in the South American case aside from lipservice to boost their image?

See..... you got to insult... all while being ignorant on the issues....


ALPA and IFALPA led the political pressure to get them return to the US.

Can you tell us the names of the aviation attorney's that the pilots used to return them to the US?

 

[CopilotDoug]

See..... you got to insult... all while being ignorant on the issues....


ALPA and IFALPA led the political pressure to get them return to the US.

Can you tell us the names of the aviation attorney's that the pilots used to return them to the US?

Sorry to take the wind out of your sails, but ALPA was just the whisper among the screams. As has been stated in articles on the subject, just about every aviation organization was involved including Excelair. If you can show me evidence that these two pilots were released as a result of ALPA alone, then I will be happy to give them full credit.

The attorney representing the pilots works for the law firm Anania Bandklayder Blackwell Baumgarten Torricella & Stein

 

[labbats]

I didn't name names when I said everyone gets scolded for saying negative things about ALPA, but you've forced my hand Rez.

I've also learned not to argue with a wall that's incapable of change.

You go your way and I'll go mine. ALPA is a shell of what is was and is supposed to be. You can argue about its merits all day long, but we both know that.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sorry to take the wind out of your sails, but ALPA was just the whisper among the screams. As has been stated in articles on the subject, just about every aviation organization was involved including Excelair. If you can show me evidence that these two pilots were released as a result of ALPA alone, then I will be happy to give them full credit.

The attorney representing the pilots works for the law firm Anania Bandklayder Blackwell Baumgarten Torricella & Stein

I never said ALPA was exclusive on the issue.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I didn't name names when I said everyone gets scolded for saying negative things about ALPA, but you've forced my hand Rez.

I've also learned not to argue with a wall that's incapable of change.

Like the apathetic membership. After dereg it was everyman for himself... the easy cushion that ALPA provided was no longer valid... but yet members still expect it. Now one has to manage thier own 401k, you can complain, that someone else should manage your retirement like the past... but when you retire... its your money.. or what you made of it...


The pilot career has changed... the membership hasn't..

You go your way and I'll go mine. ALPA is a shell of what is was and is supposed to be. You can argue about its merits all day long, but we both know that.

What was ALPA and its supposed to be? Can you tell me? Quantify that?

You mean ALPA was a service organization that took care of its members like welfare recipients. Pilots need not worry... now all that has changed and one needs to be more involved...

We both know that...

 

[777_Jackpot]

Skywest gets its work rules and other things based on what union workers have negotiated previously. Thats what they base it on. What there peers have. From there they can do better or worse. Either way without unions Skywest wouldnt have what it has today.

Actually, the root of your statement is the crux of my argument. Union WORKERS negotiate the contracts that other in house pilot groups supposedly base their work rules on. However, the only common ground the negotiating committees of each and every ALPA work force share with each other, is the bank account number their 2% is deposited in. Lets be clear, ALPA national doesn't negotiate for UAL, ASA, CAL etc, as you have pointed out, (that would be a union). The WORKERS negotiated the contracts with the explicit goal of getting the very best work rules for the pilot group that they are a member of. No membership required.