Union Question

[777_Jackpot]

I was wondering and can't find it any place on the internet, why if you choose not to participate in the union, you are forced to still pay dues? Thanks

 

[saabservant]

Because your pay, working conditions (rules), benefits, and procedures for dealing with problems (discipline) are negotiated by the company and the union, which has the right to do this due to being affirmied by a majority of the pilots.
You do not have to "participate" in union activities, but you must share, with all other pilots whose conditions are negotiated by the union, in the costs of such representation, by paying dues.
In "agency" shops, like mine, you do not have to join or become a member, but you still must share the costs, as well as the benefits.
(Wait until it's time to see an unfriendly chief pilot, or director of flt. ops., or when mgmt decides it wants to put you in a crappy, unsafe hotel, or when it wants you to "take a look" and depart to an airport below minimums, because some dispatcher just wants the aircraft there for the next morning). Getting the picture?

This is a savagely competitive, costly business. management has every incentive to cut corners, to safety, and to your quality of life and your pay and benefits. Who is better able to stand up to these threats? One pilot, or a negotiating team, backed up by local elected representatives, backed up by national union resources (legal and financial)?

If you want to be your own agent, setting your own conditions, and evaluated and rewarded as an individual, I urge you to consider corporate aviation.
It is much more conducive to negotiating conditions based on personal relationships....

For history, read "Flying the Line" vols. 1 and 2

 

[777_Jackpot]

But how can it be said that the union has been justified by the majority of the members when I would say the majority of the members, who originally voted for the union, are not with the company anymore. Moreover, how is it fair for a new hire who hasn't had the opportunity to vote for or against, to pay dues if they are not for representation. Wouldn't a reoccurring vote for representation be more accurate in determining what the majority vote in fact is?

 

[Raskal]

But how can it be said that the union has been justified by the majority of the members when I would say the majority of the members, who originally voted for the union, are not with the company anymore. Moreover, how is it fair for a new hire who hasn't had the opportunity to vote for or against, to pay dues if they are not for representation. Wouldn't a reoccurring vote for representation be more accurate in determining what the majority vote in fact is?

For someone coming into a union evironment for the first time it might seem strange, but simply put: the union is not a 'government' per se, it is simply the representation decided upon by the majority (pilots in this case). There are no recurring elections simply because they are a:expensive and b:unnecessary. The idea of the pilot group deciding that they no longer want representation by whoever is fine, then there is a decertification vote. In other words, you have to vote them off the island as a group-but this is not an annual choice, it is something that has to be introduced and ratified by the members.

As for dues, work rules for any 'union shop' apply to everyone there. For example, I think there are 3 or 4 pilots at XJ who are non-union, but they still pay dues because the majority elected ALPA, and they also receive all of the same benefits/protections as full members.

There are periodic elections for officers/offices though.

 

[rstev1955]

Moreover, how is it fair for a new hire who hasn't had the opportunity to vote for or against, to pay dues if they are not for representation.

I don't know about the other unions, but ALPA does not charge dues the first year, although you get all of the same services that any other pilot gets with the exception of arbitration. Seems to me to be a pretty good deal. Hopefully by the time you are off probation you will realize the benefits that a union can provide your pilot group and you will change your mind about being against representation.

 

[DoinTime]

Moreover, how is it fair for a new hire who hasn't had the opportunity to vote for or against, to pay dues if they are not for representation.

It is completely fair. If you don't want to be a Union pilot or pay Union dues then don't go work for a Union carrier. There is a reason why the vast majority of airline jobs in the US are Unionized and its not because pilots love unions.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Because your pay, working conditions (rules), benefits, and procedures for dealing with problems (discipline) are negotiated by the company and the union, which has the right to do this due to being affirmied by a majority of the pilots.
You do not have to "participate" in union activities, but you must share, with all other pilots whose conditions are negotiated by the union, in the costs of such representation, by paying dues.
In "agency" shops, like mine, you do not have to join or become a member, but you still must share the costs, as well as the benefits.
(Wait until it's time to see an unfriendly chief pilot, or director of flt. ops., or when mgmt decides it wants to put you in a crappy, unsafe hotel, or when it wants you to "take a look" and depart to an airport below minimums, because some dispatcher just wants the aircraft there for the next morning). Getting the picture?

This is a savagely competitive, costly business. management has every incentive to cut corners, to safety, and to your quality of life and your pay and benefits. Who is better able to stand up to these threats? One pilot, or a negotiating team, backed up by local elected representatives, backed up by national union resources (legal and financial)?

If you want to be your own agent, setting your own conditions, and evaluated and rewarded as an individual, I urge you to consider corporate aviation.
It is much more conducive to negotiating conditions based on personal relationships....

For history, read "Flying the Line" vols. 1 and 2

Hmmm. So why doesn't SkyWest have a union? Do all of those bad things you mentioned happen to SkyWest pilots, since they have no union? You know, since you said unions are absolutely necessary in this industry and management is just out to get everyone.

Or perhaps have the unions outlived their usefulness?

 

[Nevets]

Hmmm. So why doesn't SkyWest have a union? Do all of those bad things you mentioned happen to SkyWest pilots, since they have no union? You know, since you said unions are absolutely necessary in this industry and management is just out to get everyone.

Or perhaps have the unions outlived their usefulness?

The current proposal of SKW management to XJT pilots points to bad things being done by SKW management.

Just imagine how much worse places like Mesa would be without a union or how whipsawing could be mitigated if the SKW/XJT deal goes through. That should answer your last question.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

The current proposal of SKW management to XJT pilots points to bad things being done by SKW management.

Just imagine how much worse places like Mesa would be without a union or how whipsawing could be mitigated if the SKW/XJT deal goes through. That should answer your last question.

Things sure got better at ASA after SkyWest bought them, didn't they?

 

[Nevets]

Things sure got better at ASA after SkyWest bought them, didn't they?

ASA has a fragmentation clause in the scope section of their contract. This, in part, prevents aircraft transferring between the two entities. What SKW management wants to do with XJT's contract is get rid of the protection of preventing that whipsaw. Also, SKW did not transfer 29 aircraft owned/operated by ASA to be flown by SKW pilots in an ASA base (furloughing hundreds of pilots of which they could only offer preferential interviews) and set up the opportunity to eventually transfer all of their remaining aircraft if they don't become cost competitive. Surely you can't really believe that this deal is any good. Do you?

 

[BOX OFFICE]

ASA has a fragmentation clause in the scope section of their contract. This, in part, prevents aircraft transferring between the two entities. What SKW management wants to do with XJT's contract is get rid of the protection of preventing that whipsaw. Also, SKW did not transfer 29 aircraft owned/operated by ASA to be flown by SKW pilots in an ASA base (furloughing hundreds of pilots of which they could only offer preferential interviews) and set up the opportunity to eventually transfer all of their remaining aircraft if they don't become cost competitive. Surely you can't really believe that this deal is any good. Do you?

I would say it beats shutting down and having everybody lose their job like Independence Air... which is where you're heading otherwise. Surely you can't really believe that deal is any good. Do you?

 

[WIPilot]

It is completely fair. If you don't want to be a Union pilot or pay Union dues then don't go work for a Union carrier. There is a reason why the vast majority of airline jobs in the US are Unionized and its not because pilots love unions.

I was about to say that pretty much word for word.

 

[Nevets]

I would say it beats shutting down and having everybody lose their job like Independence Air... which is where you're heading otherwise. Surely you can't really believe that deal is any good. Do you?

Surely, you can't be serious! The present deal would do that anyways if XJT doesn't become "cost competitive." The way its written, if CAL decides the CPA is too expensive, the will bid it out. And with SKW having their 29 ERJs operating already, will submit a bid on that flying and transfer up to 5 aircraft a month to the winner of the bid.

Shutting the doors on an independent XJT is not as sure of an outcome as SKW wants it to be. There is a reason they are willing to pay anything now rather than picking up the pieces later.

 

[saabservant]

Hey Box:
I am very familiar with the skywest organizing effort, and the failed vote.
Do you know how many skywest pilots were arbitrarily fired in the year prior to the vote?
More than a few, but how would you know?

The skywest effort failed because: 1. Mgmt there plays a shrewd game of communications and rewards in the form of competitive pay and work rules(ironically, which were established by the union negotiators at OTHER carriers) and 2. The utter self-interest of the majority of pilots there, who are relatively low in service time and are primarily interested in their own upgrade. As long as they saw aircraft coming, (and no one they knew was getting fired), why should they care about the industry or the profession? why pay dues?

Skywest pilots have their heads in the sand, while others fight for standards in pay and rules.

 

[Princedietrich]

Surely, you can't be serious!

She is serious, but don't call her Shirley

 

[Raskal]

She is serious, but don't call her Shirley

That took longer than I thought...

 

[Nevets]

She is serious, but don't call her Shirley

Sorry, I'll call him/her BOX...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not being a member and paying a contract admin fee negates the ability to vote.

It seems that most pilots don't care to vote. Very unamerican.

ALPA is working pretty hard and is really the only union fighting for the foreign ownership laws.

Its win win for the Skywest pilots. If ALPA is successful is protecting US pilot jobs with open skies, then the OO pilots can continue on with thier "ignorance is bliss" and "why the cow when the milk is free".....

If ALPA fails to stop Foreign owenrship then we are all screwed... and it won't matter...

 

[DoinTime]

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINL1312857720080513?rpc=44

Your government is already working diligently to destroy your career in aviation. If you have more than 5-10 years left in this business you'd better get behind someone who will fight this. As Rez has already said, ALPA is the only one in the fight right now.

 

[shamrock]

Hmmm. So why doesn't SkyWest have a union? Do all of those bad things you mentioned happen to SkyWest pilots, since they have no union? You know, since you said unions are absolutely necessary in this industry and management is just out to get everyone.

Or perhaps have the unions outlived their usefulness?

SkyWest doesn't have a Union because Jerry walks a fine line and gives the pilot group just enough to keep them from unionizing. I'd hazard to say that things would be different there if not for the work of the unionized carriers and the threat of unionization at SkyWest.