Union/Non-Union Merger

[coogebeachhotel]

What would happen if a union and non-union merged? Would the non union list get stapled? Would they get fired? Any mergers in the past that had this happen?

 

[Bluejob]

Piedmont / Empire, December 1985. Empire stapled.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Under Bond-McCaskill a union/non-union seniority list merger would use the provisions of Allegheny/Mohawk.

 

[Lear70]

Under Bond-McCaskill a union/non-union seniority list merger would use the provisions of Allegheny/Mohawk.

Correct. In a MERGER, NO ONE can get stapled anymore unless an arbitrator rules it or that carrier agrees to it.

The rules are different if it's an asset sale under bankruptcy protection.

That scenario aside, in a merger, the two pilot groups would get to vote on representation, including whether not to be represented at all. Simple majority vote wins.

What's not clear is which would happen first: seniority integration arbitration or union vote...

 

[coogebeachhotel]

From Labor Law Firm Baptiste & Wilder, P.C.
Does not appear non-union guys would be covered

"The CAB mandated integration procedures for employees affected by transactions regardless of whether they were unionized. Similarly, the recent legislation would apply to any employee covered by the RLA, not just unionized employees. So, if a nonunion carrier either acquires or is acquired by a unionized carrier, all employee groups would receive these integration procedures.
Again, though, nonunion employees would not have any successorship protections (they don’t have to be hired by the successor) nor would they have any right to negotiate over their other terms of employment. The seniority integration procedures would only apply if they were hired and then would not protect any other term of employment.
Even as it relates to seniority integration, there is a fair question as to just what “seniority” nonunion employees can have. The federal courts have stated repeatedly that seniority is solely a creation of contract (i.e., collective bargaining agreements.) If you don’t have a contract, do you really have seniority? And do you have seniority entitlements (for example, in the ordering of a list) that would be enforceable in an integration arbitration?
So while this legislation covers nonunion employees, it, at most, provides only limited protection and even that protection is open to question."

 

[Lear70]

Reading that, it's a stretch to say non-union pilots wouldn't be covered.

Additionally, it's not a Federal Judge or an Arbitrator or the NMB or NLRB giving that opinion, it's a law firm, and an attorneys' opinion is worth,,, well,,, we all know what those are worth.

Additionally, there's an important section in that first paragraph:

So, if a nonunion carrier either acquires or is acquired by a unionized carrier, all employee groups would receive these integration procedures.

There ya go. Union company merges with / acquires / is acquired by non-union carrier. All employee groups receive those integration procedures.

Again, if a company is ACQUIRED under bankruptcy, all bets are off. If it's purchased whole or merged, I'll be you a C-Note that they'll get binding arbitration for integration per Bond-McCaskill... Hell, as a PRACTICAL matter, who's going to purchase an entire airline whole and not take any of the employees?

 

[coogebeachhotel]

But US Federal Courts(Judges) have ruled that seniority is a creation of contract(CBA). No contract- no seniority list in the eyes of the court.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I don't recommend it.

 

[Lear70]

But US Federal Courts(Judges) have ruled that seniority is a creation of contract(CBA). No contract- no seniority list in the eyes of the court.

That's not what I got out of that... but I've misread things before...

What I took out of it was that, in a purchase, the purchasing entity was under no obligation to take the employees with it. However, if the purchasing entity DID take the employees with it, then Bond-McCaskill integration has to happen:

The seniority integration procedures would only apply if they were hired and then would not protect any other term of employment.

In other words, if the purchasing entity took the pilots, they don't get to negotiate new wages, they go to work under the company's CBA that they're being acquired by, BUT their seniority gets determined by Arbitration.

Now, if the shoe is on the other foot, and a non-union company is acquiring a union company, then what you'd likely get is a single-carrier filing by the union company and a union vote being called for to make sure the carrier stays unionized. If the vote fails, then I imagine you'd end up with some kind of staple and years of infighting like UAir/AWA... If the vote is carried, and the combined carrier stays unionized, they MIGHT end up working under the ACQUIRED airline's CBA. Wouldn't that be a strange turn of events for the acquiring carrier?

 

[J32driver]

The question jetBlue pilots need to ask themselves, Would you bet your career and families income on being a test pilot for Bond-McCaskill? I no my answer is absolutely not!

 

[Lear70]

Well, can't argue that...

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I didn't see thousands of Delta flight attendants out of work after their merger. Aren't they non-union? Nice job trying to spread the fear, but I'm not buying it... I bet there have been more jobs lost in union-union mergers and acquisitions. TWA, Frontier and Midwest to name a few...

 

[B6Busdriver]

I didn't see thousands of Delta flight attendants out of work after their merger. Aren't they non-union? Nice job trying to spread the fear, but I'm not buying it... I bet there have been more jobs lost in union-union mergers and acquisitions. TWA, Frontier and Midwest to name a few...

Leave it to a BoB to compare pilots to flight attendants. Brilliant. Shouldn't you and your buddies be working on what BOB you are trying to get elected in the next PVC election? Maybe you guys need to start another union/BOB list.

 

[radarlove]

I didn't see thousands of Delta flight attendants out of work after their merger. Aren't they non-union? Nice job trying to spread the fear, but I'm not buying it... I bet there have been more jobs lost in union-union mergers and acquisitions. TWA, Frontier and Midwest to name a few...

Yeah, you'll be fine. What could go wrong?

 

[Splert]

I didn't see thousands of Delta flight attendants out of work after their merger. Aren't they non-union? Nice job trying to spread the fear, but I'm not buying it... I bet there have been more jobs lost in union-union mergers and acquisitions. TWA, Frontier and Midwest to name a few...

An acquisition of JetBlue may or may not result in the merger of operations like NWA and DAL.

The new merger statue does not require it and our PEA doesn't prohibit an purchaser from operating us separately.

If you think our PEA does please post the text.

 

[waveflyer]

The delta flight attendants haven't integrated yet- a big issue is the union status- it isn't a fun position for delta fa's right now having no representation in a merger

 

[Lear70]

An acquisition of JetBlue may or may not result in the merger of operations like NWA and DAL.

The new merger statue does not require it...

That's not *entirely* accurate.

If jetBlue acquired a unionized carrier, the unionized carrier could (and probably would unless they thought they were better off separate) file for single-carrier status with the NMB.

The only way they would NOT get single-carrier status is IF jetBlue operated that certificate COMPLETELY separate. Different headquarters, different management, different operations center (dispatch, mx, etc), different aircraft, ZERO mingling of personnel. Somewhat like what Pinnacle did with the purchase of Colgan.

Once single carrier status is obtained, the carriers would integrate. Period. Unless you have the pilots or mechanics drawing things out in court for years a la UAir/AWA...

 

[Blue Dude]

I didn't see thousands of Delta flight attendants out of work after their merger. Aren't they non-union? Nice job trying to spread the fear, but I'm not buying it... I bet there have been more jobs lost in union-union mergers and acquisitions. TWA, Frontier and Midwest to name a few...

The lack of SA in this post is breathtaking.

 

[Bluejob]

The lack of SA in this post is breathtaking.

Some things are summarized in one small, simple, accurate statement. This is one of those.

 

[Splert]

That's not *entirely* accurate.

If jetBlue acquired a unionized carrier, the unionized carrier could (and probably would unless they thought they were better off separate) file for single-carrier status with the NMB.

The only way they would NOT get single-carrier status is IF jetBlue operated that certificate COMPLETELY separate. Different headquarters, different management, different operations center (dispatch, mx, etc), different aircraft, ZERO mingling of personnel. Somewhat like what Pinnacle did with the purchase of Colgan.

Once single carrier status is obtained, the carriers would integrate. Period. Unless you have the pilots or mechanics drawing things out in court for years a la UAir/AWA...

Sort of like AA and AE.

 

[StaySeated]

That Wilder quote was taken from one of their propaganda pieces.

Wilder is the IBT's hired gun, and they talk out of both sides of their mouth on a daily basis.

Wilder is telling the F9 flight attendants one thing, and telling the YX flight attendants something completely opposite, because it suits the needs of the IBT.

The previous post that stated Allegheny Mohawk applies was correct. Specifically 3 and 13.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

That Wilder quote was taken from one of their propaganda pieces.

Wilder is the IBT's hired gun, and they talk out of both sides of their mouth on a daily basis.

Wilder is telling the F9 flight attendants one thing, and telling the YX flight attendants something completely opposite, because it suits the needs of the IBT.

The previous post that stated Allegheny Mohawk applies was correct. Specifically 3 and 13.

I would sure like a definitive answer from legal counsel rather than conjecture here. Until a court has to decide who knows? Safest bet would be to have a union for this issue.

 

[StaySeated]

"LABOR INTEGRATION.—With respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that—(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent’s internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section; and
(2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions."



It really is not that vauge at all. The first sentence says it all.

One interesting point. When RJET purchased YX from TPG, they reclassifed Midwest Air Group into an LLC. The LLC did not hold a certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49, United States Code. Therfor the IBT is telling the YX flight attendants that the transaction was not "covered" according to the langauge in AM. Classic union busting at its finest.

Ironically, the YX pilots are participating in 3 and 13.

Even better, the IBT filed a SOC with the NMB, and failed. So one day the YX FA's are considered a single carrier, the next day they don't even qualify for representation. Gotta love the IBT.

 

[BigMotorToter]

"LABOR INTEGRATION.—With respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that—(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent’s internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section; and
(2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions."



It really is not that vauge at all. The first sentence says it all.

One interesting point. When RJET purchased YX from TPG, they reclassifed Midwest Air Group into an LLC. The LLC did not hold a certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49, United States Code. Therfor the IBT is telling the YX flight attendants that the transaction was not "covered" according to the langauge in AM. Classic union busting at its finest.

Ironically, the YX pilots are participating in 3 and 13.

Even better, the IBT filed a SOC with the NMB, and failed. So one day the YX FA's are considered a single carrier, the next day they don't even qualify for representation. Gotta love the IBT.

Red type face says it all. You have to read further in the document to find out what "coverd employees" are. Guess what, Jeblue pilots are not "covered" because they are considered "temporary employees" due to the 5 year contract. You have to be a "permanent employee" to be covered.

 

[Blue Dude]

Red type face says it all. You have to read further in the document to find out what "coverd employees" are. Guess what, Jeblue pilots are not "covered" because they are considered "temporary employees" due to the 5 year contract. You have to be a "permanent employee" to be covered.

That's not at all clear either. Pilots are not temporary hires. The contract renews itself automatically. The only option the company has for *not* renewing is for specific cause, meaning the pilot has been fired. "We find you inconvenient in a merger" is not a listed cause.

 

[radarlove]

Unless your contract has a successorship clause, you might be in a world of hurt if you get the chance to 're-interview' since the company that signed your pilot agreement has been dissolved.

This is one of those incontrovertable times where being on a union seniority list has only an upside without a downside. You simply don't have a seniority number without a negotiated contract.

Come to think of it, JBLU doesn't even publish an official seniority list at all, do they?

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Yeah I would say Jetblue pilots would be in legal battles for years. There is so much grey area with the inividual contracts, lack of official seniority list, 5 year renewal, etc.

 

[Blue Dude]

Unless your contract has a successorship clause, you might be in a world of hurt if you get the chance to 're-interview' since the company that signed your pilot agreement has been dissolved.

This is one of those incontrovertable times where being on a union seniority list has only an upside without a downside. You simply don't have a seniority number without a negotiated contract.

Come to think of it, JBLU doesn't even publish an official seniority list at all, do they?

You'll get no argument from me. We need to be covered by a CBA, or at least a successful vote, immediately.

However some of your concerns are unfounded. We didn't just fall off the turnip truck and most of these have been known issues for 10 years. There is an official seniority list. One of the sections of the common, unified-but-individual, contract covers seniority and how it applies. There's also a successorship section that's pretty decent. It could be used almost verbatim in a CBA with adequate protection.

What's completely untested is what happens when you have 2000 "individual" contractors bound in a quasi-collective structure (identical contracts, locked in seniority, etc.) being represented in a merger transaction. It's never happened before to my knowledge. I don't savor being a test case either. I'd be happier knowing that we'd have decades of precedent to fall back on.

 

[Dan Roman]

FWIW (They were both non union at the time) When CO bought PeopleExpress they stapled the PEX Captains below all CO Captains and everyone else on the bottom. A group of PEX pilots hired a lawyer and fought it. They were integrated much more fairly.

 

[Lear70]

I personally hope JB doesn't get bought by anyone... I like JB's product and culture.

If anything, I hope JB buys another carrier and retains management control. Not saying that I think it's perfect, but it's a lot better than some of the other carriers out there in terms of culture, management-employee relations, etc.

Good luck!