Uncontrolled Airport Traffic Patterns

[MauleSkinner]

Vis. APP. or Contact you fly direct to the landing runway.

Got a reference for that?

 

[gto2002]

Wow someone flies a traffic pattern outside of training.

 

[MauleSkinner]

One of my first 121 flights I was paired with one of you "Vintage" gentleman and asked almost the same type question. Something along the lines of, "any rules of thumb for flying a visual pattern in this thing?" To which he replied, "whatever it takes kid..."

So that's what I tell people today. It's sad to see guys so wrapped up in some pre-conceived notion of what they should be doing that it gets in to the way of common sense. EVERY APPROACH AND LANDING IS DIFFERENT !!!

The thing I notice more than anything these days is that once someone gets in to a jet things they learned flying a traffic pattern in a 172 go right out the window. For instance:

1. If you have a tailwind flying from base to final USE A STEAPER BANK ANGLE TO AVOID FLYING THROUGH THE FINAL APPROACH COURSE !!!

2. "THEY TOLD ME AT (INSERT TRAINING FACILITY HERE) THAT I SHOULD START CLOSING THE POWER LEVERS AT (INSERT HAT HERE)..." UMMM, THAT WON'T WORK WHEN YOU HAVE A 90 DEGREE CROSSWIND GUSTING AT 30 KTS. PAL !!! This creates the arguement of who you're going to believe, the guy that's got 7 years of continuous line experience or the guy that sits in a box at FlightSafety that just because he's been through one initial is all of a sudden an "expert" in these sort of matters.

Just out of curiosity, what is it that you're flying that requires power to land in a crosswind? I've never seen that.

As you stated, things don't change when you get out of a 172...if you have a "standard" pattern or technique, any changes required will result in the requirement for a known correction to get back to the proper point for landing, which is crossing the threshold on glidepath at the proper speed for touchdown in the touchdown zone. Especially in a crew situation, if you both know what you're deviating from, you both know what the correction will be, and you continue to be a crew instead of just two pilots in the same airplane who will end up in the same place, wherever that may be.

I've found that copilots who fly primarily with "do whatever it takes" instructors take a lot longer to learn to land the jet than do the copilots who are taught a procedure.

Fly safe!

David

 

[Hugh Johnson]

This is from the FSI Manual for the FA50. They're pretty much industry standard. Adjust speeds for you're aircraft.

PATTERN ENTRY

1. Clean Configuration
2. Speen 190 KIAS
3. Altitude 1500 Feet

ABEAM Mid-Runway

1. Configuration SLATS
2. Speed 170 KIAS
3. Altitude 1500 Feet
4. Approach Checklist

ABEAM the numbers

1. Configuration SLATS + Flaps 20
2. Gear DOWN
3. Speed 150 KIAS
4. Before Landing Checklist

Base Leg

1. Configuration Slats + Flaps 48 (Full on the 50)
2. Minimum Altitude 500 Feet

Landing Assured

1. Configuration Slats + Flaps 48
2. Vref + Wind Correction


Descent is initiated sometime after mid runway. CHeers.

 

[h25b]

Just out of curiosity, what is it that you're flying that requires power to land in a crosswind? I've never seen that.

I've found that copilots who fly primarily with "do whatever it takes" instructors take a lot longer to learn to land the jet than do the copilots who are taught a procedure.

Fly safe!

David

I am simply making the point that closing the power levers to idle at 50' + on every single landing just because that is what they taught you during an initial (where most landings have little wind) might not be the best course of action. Geez..

I'd rather it take a little more time for them to learn how to do it right than bend metal following some cookie cutter instructional technique. I'd also like to think that someone being hired in to the seat of a turbojet powered aircraft would have the concept of "not every approach/landing is the same" well within his/her level of expertise.

But there goes my old fashioned idealic philosophy rearing its ugly head again... :erm:

 

[mobie]

Contact App or Vis App

Lets see you are cleared for a contact app (or if the wx is better a visual) rwy 33 the tower is closed. I hope you do not fly over the airport and enter a down wind.

 

[SSDD]

Mobie,

I haven't thought about a contact approach in years, so I won't address that, but once you accept a visual approach, you're just like everyone else in the pattern. You have to conform to the traffic pattern. If there are 5 C-150's in the pattern you have to sequence yourself accordingly.

There are no exceptions in the regs for visual approaches or aircraft types.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I am simply making the point that closing the power levers to idle at 50' + on every single landing just because that is what they taught you during an initial (where most landings have little wind) might not be the best course of action. Geez..

Well, "won't work" and "might not be the best course of action" do have slightly different meanings

I'd rather it take a little more time for them to learn how to do it right than bend metal following some cookie cutter instructional technique. I'd also like to think that someone being hired in to the seat of a turbojet powered aircraft would have the concept of "not every approach/landing is the same" well within his/her level of expertise.

But there goes my old fashioned idealic philosophy rearing its ugly head again... :erm:

What is "right"? Operating the thrust levers like the engine's got an accelerator pump? I've had to cure that with a "standardized" procedure.

Touching down halfway down a 5000-foot runway after spinning up the wheels in the grass off the approach end (not to mention the 250-ft tower on 3-mile final)? I've had to cure that with a "standardized" procedure.

Requesting additional flaps when we're low and slow already? I've had to cure that with a "standardized" procedure.

Once the standardized procedure is down, deviations and resulting corrections can be made much more easily. The result? Pretty soon they "know how to do it right", and I can let them try their hand at the gusty 30-knot crosswind without worrying about bent metal.

I agree...in an ideal world, everybody would know how to fly whatever it is that they're hired into. But then, if that were the case, we wouldn't need (insert training facility here).

Fly safe!

David

 

[h25b]

Well, "won't work" and "might not be the best course of action" do have slightly different meanings

What is "right"? Operating the thrust levers like the engine's got an accelerator pump? I've had to cure that with a "standardized" procedure.

Touching down halfway down a 5000-foot runway after spinning up the wheels in the grass off the approach end (not to mention the 250-ft tower on 3-mile final)? I've had to cure that with a "standardized" procedure.

Requesting additional flaps when we're low and slow already? I've had to cure that with a "standardized" procedure.

Once the standardized procedure is down, deviations and resulting corrections can be made much more easily. The result? Pretty soon they "know how to do it right", and I can let them try their hand at the gusty 30-knot crosswind without worrying about bent metal.

I agree...in an ideal world, everybody would know how to fly whatever it is that they're hired into. But then, if that were the case, we wouldn't need (insert training facility here).

Fly safe!

David

I agree with everything you just said. It's those that have a problem deviating from the basic techniques taught in the initial stages of training to the extent necessary to handle the situation at hand. It's called airmanship, or lack thereof....

 

[2EASYPilot]

This tread appears to have drifted a bit but on approach speeds....I am not sure about other airframes...but you probable do not want to be at ref and go to idle on a 900EX unless you are really close to touchdown or quite light...2000EX is a very annimal, lands like a 182 !!!

 

[AA717driver]

Just out of curiosity, what is it that you're flying that requires power to land in a crosswind? I've never seen that.

Every jet aircraft that I have flown.

If you are in a crosswind, you are going to end up cross controlling (see crosswind thread from about a month ago...) right before touchdown. If you keep a touch of power on (no, I don't have a number, I just do "whatever it takes") until the upwind wheel touches, you'll negate the speed bleed when you come out of the crab.

That's why I never use A/T in a crosswind. They will screw you every time. I never use them anyway on landing (see the related thread on CaaM...).

I do agree that a student needs to be taught a proceedure to use as a reference point. I think h25b's point is that it must not be dogmatic and everyone has to tailor the proceedure to their own liking. Sometimes you have to return to the basic proceedure and start over in developing your own technique if you aren't successful initially.TC

P.S.--Re: airports whose ICAO I.D. begin with "U" or "Z". My position is and has always been !

 

[temcgrew]

The gentleman that I fly with says that the descent should not be started on the downwind leg being that we are now desending into the pattern altitude of the other smaller aircraft.

Well, by the time you are abeam the numbers if you don't know if there is a 152 below or a bit ahead of you, then we should be talking about communications in uncontrolled airports.