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Ummmm....anyone have a new starter?

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gkrangers

college = debt
Joined
May 21, 2004
Posts
1,405
http://wx.hookemupcharters.com/files/starterhousing.jpg

So there I was, minding my own business, just trying to start the plane.

First crank, starter doesn't engage. Ok, second crank, horrid horrid noise as starter engages. Shut everything down and got out to take a look at the front of the engine compartment, where the starter is.

See the picture above for what I found.

There was also scoring on the inside of the brass fitting, and a nick on the inside of the casing.

The prop would not rotate in the opposite direction of its normal motion. So I moved it slightly down, in its normal spinning direction, and just heard "click click click click" as it moved. I only moved it a few inches, to see if it would move.

Kinda glad things fell apart on the ground...

Think the housing could break inflight, if it was already cracked?

Sounded and it appeared there was more to it than just the starter.

Any thoughts on what would cause the housing to break open like that?
 
Ahh, who needs a starter? Just push start it!


Roll 'er down hill, put 'er in second, and pop the clutch. BruuuuuUUUUUUuuuuummmmmm.




:)






.
 
Gk,

From the picture, you appear to have experienced a failure of your bendix housing. The housing is cast, which is not the strongest of materials. It is prone to shattering and fatigue, just like any other metal.

Your bendix drive may have failed and caused the stresses on the starter housing. The end of the housing acts as a bearing for the starter motor and the support end for the bendix drive. A failure of the drive (the ratchet shaped part in the end of your starter that engages the starter ring on the engine...often located at the back of the propeller) may have fractured the housing. Conversely, a failure of the housing could have caused the bendix problem, causing it to stick as the starter shaft becomes misaligned.

What caused this? Impossible to say. Excessive stresses may have been experienced before, by this starter. It may have been left engaged during a flight. It may simply have reached the end of it's life. (clearly, it has).

You asked if this could fail in flight. As the starter is only used for start up and shutdown, the only chance for this item to fail in flight under normal circumstances would be if you had occasion to use the starter. Otherwise, as the starter never normally gets used in flight, there should be no stresses on the starter motor or bendix drive. It's not turning, it's not energized, and it's not attached to the engine unless you failed to check for disengagement after a start in the last flight or two. (You'll normally see a stuck bendix in the form of unusual voltages, generators tripping off, or an abnormally high amperage draw on your ammeter).

If you've had the starter hang or fail to turn the engine/propeller lately, it may have been the crack developing and the housing giving way, allowing the starter shaft to misalign and the bendix to stick, while the commutator was binding in the starter core.

What this means to you, as you already know is...you need a new starter.
 
Thanks avbug..I had a friend with me whos into cars, and he mentioned it being cast, and therefor generally weak.

I had a lot of trouble starting this aircraft once, a few weeks ago (made a thread about it actually). And it had experienced the starter not disengaging before, within the last two months, according to its discrep sheet. So the crack was probably getting a little worse with each usage.

I was just curious if the housing could break just from vibration from the engine in flight, and thereby cause any problems.
 
TonyC said:
Ahh, who needs a starter? Just push start it!


Roll 'er down hill, put 'er in second, and pop the clutch. BruuuuuUUUUUUuuuuummmmmm.




:)






.
Click to expand...

TonyC,

This post just goes to show how little you know. You cannot push-start an airplane. To do so, you would have to push it at a TREMEDOUS speed, which you could never do safely, if at all, on the ground. Also, none of the airplanes I've seen/flown, have a clutch/transmission as you claim. Yes, airplanes with constant-speed props use a governor to alter the pitch of the blades, but that's not the same thing as a clutch, and there is no "second gear" as you claim, because it is basically an infinitely adjustable system.

Try doing a little more research before you post.
 
UnAnswerd said:
TonyC,

This post just goes to show how little you know. You cannot push-start an airplane. To do so, you would have to push it at a TREMEDOUS speed, which you could never do safely, if at all, on the ground. Also, none of the airplanes I've seen/flown, have a clutch/transmission as you claim. Yes, airplanes with constant-speed props use a governor to alter the pitch of the blades, but that's not the same thing as a clutch, and there is no "second gear" as you claim, because it is basically an infinitely adjustable system.

Try doing a little more research before you post.
Click to expand...
whiskey t
 
UnAnswerd said:
TonyC,

This post just goes to show how little you know. You cannot push-start an airplane. To do so, you would have to push it at a TREMEDOUS speed, which you could never do safely, if at all, on the ground. Also, none of the airplanes I've seen/flown, have a clutch/transmission as you claim. Yes, airplanes with constant-speed props use a governor to alter the pitch of the blades, but that's not the same thing as a clutch, and there is no "second gear" as you claim, because it is basically an infinitely adjustable system.

Try doing a little more research before you post.
Click to expand...
whiskey tango foxtrot
 
i just spit coffee all over the place after reading that.........

some through the nose and it was very hot
 
You cannot push-start an airplane.
Click to expand...

Really? I learned to fly in a J-3 cub, and we were propping airplanes long before we had them thar new fangled starter motors. You really should do a little bit of research before you post.

To do so, you would have to push it at a TREMEDOUS speed, which you could never do safely, if at all, on the ground.
Click to expand...

Never propped an airplane before, have you?

Apparently never towed a glider with a car, either.

Come to think of it, any gyroplane is started that way, and runs the entire flight in autorotation. Traditionally these were spun up by hand and the training done by towing them with a car at a fast enough speed to achieve flight rotor RPM in order to get airborne.


Also, none of the airplanes I've seen/flown, have a clutch/transmission as you claim.
Click to expand...

Haven't flown much yet, unanswered. Again, you really should do a little more research before you post.

Virtually all large piston engines utilize a clutch.

Most all helicopters utilize a sprague clutch for rotor engagement.


Yes, airplanes with constant-speed props use a governor to alter the pitch of the blades, but that's not the same thing as a clutch, and there is no "second gear" as you claim, because it is basically an infinitely adjustable system.
Click to expand...

With your wealth of experience, you ought to be familiar with more than just a constant speed propeller. Controllable propellers needn't be constant speed, and may be limited to just two or more positions.

Some engines utilizing reduction units do indeed use a clutch or torque converter assy...you really should do a little more research before you post.

As far as diving and driving...ever heard of an airstart? Never seen one airplane start another or provide an assist by using the thrust of one engine to work an engine behind it? You really should do a little more research before you post.

Back to the subject matter, GK, your starter shouldn't pose a hazard if it fails in flight. However, I once had an alternator assembly come apart, which fell forward and went through the propeller. Anything coming loose up there could conceivably cause damage or cause a problem. I've also had startersand generators fail at the attach points and hang on the splined shaft into the engine accessory drive. These caused wear and heat, and chewed up both the drive and the starter and/or generator. Constant speed units, something found on turbine engines, can go a step further by causing enough friction and heat during a failure to set fire to the magnesium frame that usually forms the casing and support of the starter, generator, or starter/generator.
 
avbug said:
Really? I learned to fly in a J-3 cub, and we were propping airplanes long before we had them thar new fangled starter motors. You really should do a little bit of research before you post.
Click to expand...

He said push-start, not hand-prop. Try reading the posts a little more carefully.

avbug said:
Virtually all large piston engines utilize a clutch.
Click to expand...

The original posters airplane does not.

avbug said:
As far as diving and driving...ever heard of an airstart? Never seen one airplane start another or provide an assist by using the thrust of one engine to work an engine behind it?
Click to expand...

He said push-start, not air-start. Try reading the posts a little more carefully.
 
Could there be an engine problem, could you have overprimed and had a hydraulic lock? Something has to give if the engine won't spin. Usually the battery says 'no more' - never heard of breaking the starter.
Or maybe an impulse coupling didn't retard the spark and a piston kicked back on the starter while engaged?
 
Seriously or not...

bigD said:
That's not true UnAnswered.

Nobody takes you seriously.
Click to expand...

It's now official: UnAnswered is my favorite poster. I haven't smiled all day and that last little exchange was frickin' hilarious.
 
It's really hard to take a post that ridiculously stated, seriously. However, to answer your comments once more:

He said push-start, not hand-prop. Try reading the posts a little more carefully.
Click to expand...

The piston airplane equivilent of a push start on a car, and the action most akin mechanically to push starting a clutch equipped manual or standard transmission car, is hand propping the engine. Further, I believe Tonyc referred to going downhill fast...the very same thing we do in an air start. As the original poster asked specifically about hazard potentials as a result of his condition in flight, TonyC's comment is particularly relevant. If one experiences such a starter failure in flight and needs to use the starter motive power to rotate the engine, a steep dive with propeller windmilling action will accomplish the same, and the engine may be started without the aid of the accessorized starter motor.

Try doing a little more research, next time.


Virtually all large piston engines utilize a clutch...The original posters airplane does not.
Click to expand...

Really? What do you suppose constitutes a bendix drive, but a clutch? Most certainly the original poster's aircraft utilizes a clutch.

Try doing a little more research, next time.


He said push-start, not air-start. Try reading the posts a little more carefully.
Click to expand...

While TonyC's post was placed here tongue in cheek, I can't help but note that yours smacks of utter foolishness.

You see, we fly aircraft. That's AIRcraft. A windmilling start is a push start, owing to dynamic airflow pushing on the blade face, intertia in the blade maintaining an autorotative state (contrary to resistance), and a forward vector of thrust owing to induced lift perpendicular to the relative wind striking the blade face...all of which serves to spin up the blade against the internal resistance of the engine, induced drag on the prop blade, and the standing inertia resisting an increase in angular momentum of the propeller blades themselves.

Air start.

Which, I might add, may be accomplished on the ground by placing an aircraft with a running engine in front of the aircraft with the dead starter, and using propwash to assist in the starting process. Believe it or not. And then there's numerous other kind of aircraft, such as the gyroplane previously mentioned, which is push started in every way.

You really should do a little more research before you post.

But why stop there? As propping a piston aircraft engine is the same as push starting an automobile, and we are certainly pushing on the descending blade when we hand prop, we can be clearly noted to be push starting the aircraft by hand propping.

You probably know this already, unaswered, but you really should do a little more research before you post.
 
avbug said:
If one experiences such a starter failure in flight and needs to use the starter motive power to rotate the engine, a steep dive with propeller windmilling action will accomplish the same, and the engine may be started without the aid of the accessorized starter motor.
Click to expand...

But he said push-start, not "enter a steep dive and try to get the prop windmilling". Try doing a little more research, next time.

avbug said:
Really? What do you suppose constitutes a bendix drive, but a clutch? Most certainly the original poster's aircraft utilizes a clutch.
Click to expand...

Ah, I read ya now. In that case, my pencil-sharpener has a clutch.


avbug said:
While TonyC's post was placed here tongue in cheek, I can't help but note that yours smacks of utter foolishness.
Click to expand...

Well, that was the whole point. God you are sharp!!!
 
hey gkrangers, what did you do with the piece of the starter? maintenance was down here asking if anyone had turned it in. did you keep it? if so, bring 'er on down so they can have it.
 
UnAnswerd said:
But he said push-start
Click to expand...

I'd wager that "Unanswered" is capable of suck starting it!

The only time that I've seen a broken housing is when the bendix wasn't maintained properly, lack of lubrication, and failed to dis-engage. It also rendered the starter ring gear un servicable.
 
cforst513 said:
hey gkrangers, what did you do with the piece of the starter? maintenance was down here asking if anyone had turned it in. did you keep it? if so, bring 'er on down so they can have it.
Click to expand...
He's down at the local hardware store looking for some J-B weld.



:)




.
 
cforst513 said:
hey gkrangers, what did you do with the piece of the starter? maintenance was down here asking if anyone had turned it in. did you keep it? if so, bring 'er on down so they can have it.
Click to expand...
I was told I could have it, but I'll bring it down later.
 

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