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UAL's New Low-Cost Carrier

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FADECtoBLACK

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Posts
76
Kinda off the topic (although I have yet to see a consistent topic on this board :D ) ...but is anybody ready to place bets on the the name for United's new low-cost spin-off?

If Delta's got "Song," my money's on "Rhapsody" for UAL. There's a couple of tie-ins with that one (gotta love Gershwin).

Anyone have the CEO's digits... I wanna submit this one ASAP!
 
UAL's CEO Tilton made an anouncement a few days ago that they are not going to pursue this, since all three unions were so angry.
 
Wednesday February 5

Associated Press
United Airlines Plans Low-Cost Carrier
Wednesday February 5, 7:10 pm ET
By Dave Carpenter, AP Business Writer
United Airlines Plans Low-Cost Carrier, Regional Jets in Effort to Return to Profitability


CHICAGO (AP) -- United Airlines said Wednesday it plans to return to profitability through a combination of reducing costs, launching a low-cost carrier and using more regional jets.
In the most extensive comments yet on its new strategy in bankruptcy, United told its employees it needs its own discount carrier to become more competitive in the leisure travel market.

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It defended the plan to create a separate, low-cost airline -- which has been assailed by unions and questioned by industry experts since it was first disclosed in December -- saying it will entail a new business model that "has learned from the industry's past mistakes."

But unions remained cool to the plan and analysts said there were not enough details available yet to fairly assess it.

While disclosing few specifics about either the discount carrier or the overall strategy, United said its plan is centered on the strong network of routes and hubs that give it a "distinct revenue advantage" over its competitors.

"We simply generate more money with our network," executive vice president Doug Hacker said in a taped message on a company hot line. "What we don't have are cost advantage and the flexibility that allow us to respond to substantial changes in the market."

United, the world's No. 2 carrier, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection eight weeks ago and lost a worst-ever $3.2 billion in 2002. It has been scrambling to overhaul its financial strategy, slash labor costs by a targeted $2.4 billion a year, renegotiate aircraft leases and mortgages and restructure its fleet.

It said in a monthly operating report filed with the federal bankruptcy court in Chicago this week that it lost an average $7.2 million a day during its first 23 days in bankruptcy, from Dec. 9-31.

The company briefed union leaders on the developing strategy in a meeting Tuesday.

The pilots and flight attendants unions have criticized management for not presenting more specific data to justify the dramatic changes and concessions it is seeking; they pledged to fight the plan for a low-cost carrier. Another sore spot with pilots in particular is the planned reliance on more regional jets, which affects pay and seniority.

Pilots' union spokesman Dave Kelly said the union learned "absolutely nothing new" from the PowerPoint presentation the company gave Tuesday and hasn't changed its stance.

"We're not opposed to a low-cost carrier if it's structured under the United umbrella and uses current United employees. But we will not accept a low-cost carrier that means a separate employee group and hiring pilots and employees off the street as a separate company," he said.

The machinists' union declined comment. "Our comments are going to be restricted to the bargaining table," spokesman Joseph Tiberi said Wednesday.

The company told employees in the recorded message that it is discussing the structure, size and operational plans for a discount carrier with unions.

It said it wants to expand United Express and use more 70-seat aircraft because it's falling behind in the industry in the use of regional jets, which are significantly cheaper to operate. Only 23 percent of its fleet is in regional jets, compared with 54 percent for Delta Air Lines and 50 percent for Continental Airlines, it noted.

United executives have been negotiating with the unions since last month on the sharply reduced wages they are seeking in bankruptcy.

Its employees already have taken temporary pay cuts that give United until May 1 to secure long-term contract agreements. The pilots agreed to 29 percent wage reductions and flight attendants to 9 percent cuts; the bankruptcy court imposed 14 percent cutbacks on machinists, who include mechanics, ramp workers and customer contact workers.

Shares in United parent UAL Corp. jumped 19 cents to close at $1.10 on the New York Stock Exchange.

www.united.com
 
UAL should start a new advertising campaign - United "Lowering"

Because this company won't be around for too much longer.
 
It's so nice to see someone take such delight in the troubles of others. May you be stuck in that single engine four banger for many years to come.

If UAL fails and they lay off their pilots, and the UAX regionals lay off their pilots, you WILL see it have a direct effect on your career.

S.
 
Last edited:
generaltso said:
UAL should start a new advertising campaign - United "Lowering"

Because this company won't be around for too much longer.

You are an a$$.

'Nuff said.
 
Hey guys - I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But maybe by facing it now it will not be as much of a shock when it actually happens. UAL can't survive at the rate it is burning through cash, even in its Chapter 11.

No one wants to see it happen, including me... thousands being laid off is never a good thing.

However, I think a UAL liquidation would be a good thing for the rest of the industry. There are just one too many carriers right now.
 
I usually dont chime in however.........you know this from your vast experience?

According to your profile you dont seem to be from the airline world. These people responding have thier livleyhoods on the line. What is decided at UAL has a ripple effect that will directly affect many people on this board...including you! If UAL does go south (according to you esteemed prediction) you will not be able to find, beg borrow, buy, or steal a job for many years to come!

Dont be so quick of the tongue...........dont mean to sound like a jerk, but it is a cruel world just getting crueler by the day!
 
I don't think ANY of us have any illusions about the health of United Airlines. Every day I'm all too aware of how likely it is that I'll be out of a job if (When) UAL goes under. None of you guys and your brilliant observations are any news to us. You just seem to take such delight in others problems. I don't gloat about UAX expansion as it comes with UAL pilots being put on the street.

Nobody brought new news that would cause us to shoot a messenger.

You boys enjoy your 100LL jobs, I may be there before too long myself.

S.
 
Beechnut:

My thoughts exactly. Those that take delight in others problems, aside from being complete jerks, will not have good fortune themselves. What goes around comes around boys......
 
caught in the crossfire....

wait a minute azul, i don't recall any of general tso's remarks inferring that he took a delight in the problems of any crewmember. it seems that whenever a pilot on this board voices a view too sensitive to some, he's chastized, ridiculed and electronically burned at the stake.

on a recent usa today featur, there was a rubik's cube with the united logo placed on it and the article purported to show the diffuculties facing management during this crisis.

Azul, can tell me or any body why and how united will succeed?

Personally, i hope they do, the pilots seem to want it too, and they have a great brand with route structure that is the envy of many.

if our great president wasn't currently brandishing his sabre, the economy might be farther ahead. instead all the markets are in a holding pattern waiting to see what happens.
 
General Tso wrote:

"UAL should start a new advertising campaign - United "Lowering"

Because this company won't be around for too much longer."



As far as taking delight in others misfortunes, his comments are pretty smarta$$. Call it what it is .
 
call it what it is

rightrudder, okay, it could have been in poor taste. i was laid off most of last year. i know the pain and i realize the sensitivity of these issues.

I believe united is going to make it and they're gonna compete with the LCCs.

remember, nobody thought detroit would come back and lick the japs either.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If our great president wasn't currently brandishing his sabre, the economy might be farther ahead..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMEN Brotha!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes! Let's put all sense of duty and national security in the can. We've got contracts to ratify. If the WWII generation had this attitude, we'd have been toast.

Screw the war on teerror. Let's get the economy going, then sit around fat, dumb, and happy and let 'em attack us AGAIN!

I'm sorry, you probably thought that they had their fun and now want to enter into trade agreements with us.

Don't blame Bush for the Foreign-Policy disaster that is clinton's
'legacy'. Like YOU could do any better. Please.

What selfishness.
Some of our troops probably won't come back to ANY economy.
I don't hear THEM complaining.

Sorry for the flame, guys...

Peace, love, harmony..... then instant obliteration for another batch of Americans.
 
Don't blame Bush for the Foreign-Policy disaster that is clinton's
'legacy'. Like YOU could do any better. Please.

Seems to me that Bush Junior is still fighting Bush Senior's foreign policy disater.
 
We could have finished him off (hussein), but the 'international community' got squeamish.

Remember, the vast majority of Americans supported the Gulf war before AND after.

Few saw the mistake of leaving hussein in power.
They thought we could make him submit to 'inspections'.
Fools. We are going to pay for it again. Will it take a dirty bomb blowing up on American soil to convice you? You know, that would still probably not do the trick.

True believers are aptly named.
 
OH MY GOD:

Heard from a United FA today (on their Union website) that the proposed name of United's LLC was to be: "Starfish"!

Now, I have heard everything!
 
Hey, isn't a "starfish" a codename for an ANUS or "Brown eye"? Seriously, isn't that true? I thought Song was bad, but come on! United really needs some leadership to pull them though this. Let's hope they get some quick!

Bye Bye---General Lee:eek: :cool:
 
Little Lift from United's Discount Airline
UAL says a low-cost service is key to its rebound. More likely, it'll rile unions, confuse customers, and eat into mainline sales



Two months after taking UAL Corp. (UAL ) into Chapter 11 bankruptcy, Chairman and Chief Executive Glenn Tilton has begun laying out his plan to restructure the airline by mid-2004. The centerpiece: a new low-cost service that would offer bargain fares coast-to-coast and complement UAL's mainline brand, United Airlines.

On paper, the move seems sound. Though details are still being worked out, the new subsidiary, code-named Starfish for now, would look a lot like Southwest Airlines (LUV ), featuring only one type of aircraft, no-frills cabins, and flights to vacation markets such as Orlando and Las Vegas. It would be staffed with lower-paid employees who likely would be reassigned from United's payroll, says Douglas Hacker, UAL's executive vice-president for strategy.

In theory, Starfish should finally blunt Southwest and other cheap-seat carriers that now compete with United on 70% of its routes and are stealing ever-more business. The airline would start next autumn with service from Chicago, Denver, San Francisco, and United's other hubs and could soon account for about a third of United's 1,700 daily flights.

BURNED ONCE. It would be a radical departure for the world's No. 2 airline, but given UAL's financial straits -- the Elk Grove Township (Ill.) company lost $3.2 billion in 2002, after a $2.1 billion loss in 2001 -- Tilton argues there's no other way. "Every one of us knows that we cannot fix our business as it is currently structured," he told employees in a recorded message before management presented his plan to union chiefs on Feb. 4. "We must establish an alternative to the low-cost carriers that will appeal to the customers in this market segment."

In reality, however, Tilton's transformation may be only another dead-end. Indeed, UAL attempted a discount carrier once before, Shuttle by United, which began in California in 1994. It was folded into the mainline in 2001, after unions pushed labor expenses back up to United's levels, rendering it uneconomical.

And UAL's wasn't the only failure. Every hub-and-spoke carrier that has started a discount subsidiary -- from Continental Airlines' (CAL ) Continental Lite and US Airways' (UAWGQ ) MetroJet to Delta's (DAL ) Delta Express -- has flopped as costs ballooned and single-minded rivals like Southwest or JetBlue Airways (JBLU ) expanded.

LABOR REBELS. "I'm skeptical an 'airline within an airline' can ever work," says Michael Levine, a Yale University law professor and former airline exec. He predicts that at best UAL would simply trim its losses by creating a second airline, rather than actually make money.

Things aren't likely to be different with United in Chapter 11. United's labor unions, fearing steep wage cuts at Starfish and the loss of more jobs, are vowing a fight to the finish to keep Tilton from launching the low-cost service. Paul Whiteford Jr., chairman of the 8,600-member Air Line Pilots Assn. at United, predicts the plan would lead to a piecemeal sale of United. "There's no recipe out there that says this is a good idea," he says.

Adds Gregory Davidowitch, president of the Association of Flight Attendants at United: "This strategy could not be worse." Granted, the unions may not be able to do much more than complain: At the end of the day, Bankruptcy Court Judge Eugene Wedoff could impose contract terms on labor allowing UAL to proceed.

LOST EDGE? Even if Starfish takes off, however, industry consultants and analysts warn that it probably won't get very far. When the new contracts come up for renewal, unions undoubtedly will push to lift pay scales and workplace rules to mainline levels, just as they have done at every other airline that has ever imposed a two-tier wage structure. Once that happens, the new unit no longer will have the edge needed to go head-to-head with low-cost rivals.

Plus, United will incur another cost: surly employees who feel they've been relegated to second-class status, especially if their pay rates were crammed down their throats by the judge.

That's not all. By operating from the same airports with tickets issued by the same company, the twin airlines could easily confuse and rile passengers -- particularly business travelers, who may find themselves stuffed in a one-size-fits-all plane instead of a roomier United jet.

PROFIT-EATER. UAL aims to create a discount airline that would be self-sufficient, but some analysts predict it may be forced to subsidize its bargain prices on Starfish with cash from high-priced tickets on its mainline flights. That's what Delta appears set to do with its new Song discount airline, a 36-plane operation that will launch in April with service between the Northeast and Florida.

United isn't the only network airline getting blown away by discount rivals. As bankruptcy chatter grows louder, American Airlines parent AMR Corp. (AMR ) is telling unions it must slash labor costs by $1.8 billion a year to return to avoid UAL's fate.

The upshot: The more Starfish expands, the more it could eat into mainline sales and the less money UAL would have to funnel into its startup or its own pockets. "This plan is something they could lose the airline over," observes Darryl Jenkins, director of George Washington University's Aviation Institute and an industry consultant. "In all candor, they should forget it."

READY TO CHANGE. Tilton concedes his transformation plan is still evolving. UAL's creditors committee, for instance, hasn't yet been briefed on the restructuring. Once that happens, Hacker says, management will take feedback from all stakeholders and modify the scheme if necessary.

Still, it looks like Tilton's goal of saving UAL might be better served by transforming all of United Airlines into a money-maker, not just a piece of it.


BusinessWeek Chicago Correspondent Arndt always flies discount whenever he travels
Edited by Douglas Harbrecht
 
Starfish = Brown Eye = "Wrecked 'em"

General Lee -- I don't usually agree with much you post, but I just about busted a gut when I read that "starfish" is a codeword for more than just a new airline. (I won't ask what you've been doing on your layovers or who you've been hanging out with in your off time. ;-) If that's true, let's hope that some of the alternative lifestyle types will clue in the decision makers before our bros have to use a "Starfish" callsign!
 
DGS,

Well, I don't have an "alternative lifestyle" ---and remember, BOTH sexes have "browneyes." (Not only dudes) I did have a wild life at the previous regional I flew at. Over 60% of the flight attendants were also strippers at the time---due to the fact that their pay was sooo low at the regional. Thank God that regional paid me in "ones", because they were gone fast.

Bye Bye---General Lee:cool:
 

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