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Superfueler

Hero of the stupid
Joined
Oct 28, 2002
Posts
29
This pretty much sums it up....

A large part of United's problem, critics say, has been that its union contracts have made the carrier's labor costs among the highest in the industry and placed an unusual amount of power in the hands of the unions.

In 1993 United's unions agreed to buy the carrier under an employee stock ownership plan. Today, employees own 54 percent of the company, with a quarter of its stock owned by pilots.

"When you have such a high percentage (owned by employees), the pilots end up being in control." said Aaron Gellman, a professor at the Transportation Center and the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University.

"What do they know about managing a company?" he said.

Ahhhh.......aren't unions great????

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/uniontrib/sun/business/news_1b8united.html
 
Yeah, actually unions are great! Without them, pilots would be working 18 hour days for half what they are making now. Probably wouldnt have the jumpseat privledges. Many safety related FARs have come about because of pressure by unions. Talk to the management about airlines doing poorly! My company, while it is currently making money, keeps talking about cutting back expenses and then with the next breath announces they are creating a new VP of something or other!
There are goods and bads of everything....but in this case the goods far outweigh the bads!
 
Sure, the safety related things airline pilots unions do are good, but it doesn't really help out if their greed puts the airline under, and really hurts the rest of the industry.
 
Don’t get confused companies do not go out of bisness because of employees or unions. They are just shifting the blame. Your job is to do as instructed, so how can an employee that is doing as instructed be held accountable for bad instructions?
As far as unions, would you rather (as a CEO) deal with 100 or 12,000 individual employees all with separate deals or a couple of unions?
 
First off, the pilots aren't "in control" and Secondly the NU professor you quote, Aaron Gellman, seems to miss the target each time he is interviewed on television.

I feel for United and their current and former employees.

Thank God for a college degree and back up plan.

:( :( :(
 
How now, brown cow

The relationship between UA's ESOP board seats and their woes is one of the more misunderstood aspects of UA. The unions do not control the company, things would have gone down differently(not necessarily positively) if they did control the company. They have supermajority voting powers under certain circumstances such as major corporate transactions and CEO approval(not removal). The supermajority votes only outweigh the rest of the board when 2 of the 3 employee reps vote together on a particular matter. Since the third rep is for the salaried and management employees and is chosen by the company, that rep always votes with the company so all we're really talking about here is the IAM and ALPA board reps. The track record shows that the supermajority powers haven't amounted to much of a big deal. Major corporate transactions like UsAirways and Avolar were apporved by the board, with only UsAirways providing a split vote between IAM and ALPA. The split nullified the supermajority powers which is why the deal was not blocked. The powers did come into play when the IAM wanted Goodwin to assume the CEO position versus John Edwardson. They lobbied ALPA to support them, which then Master Chairman Mike Glawe did which blocked Edwardson from the CEO spot. Goodwin was an absolute disaster and a much bigger part of the problems at UA than your local rag will let onto, but interestingly interim CEO Jack Creighton has said Edwardson would have been a poor choice as well. He said that Edwardson shared the same poor understanding of the ESOP that Goodwin held, and would likely have made the same mistakes and possibly more. As far as contracts go, I love the assertion that being on the board somehow allows the IAM and ALPA to negotiate their own payraises. Nothing could be further from the truth. Both groups had traditional ugly well-publicised section 6 labor negotiations. If they could have voted their own raises, do you think it would taken as long as it did? Same goes for the removal of Goodwin. The unions and shareholdes were fed up with him long before the rest of the board was, but he wasn't removed. His removal was for pretty traditional reasons. His now infamous "perish," letter severely damaged the stock price and exposed the board to potential lawsuits for failure provide fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. Even though Dubinsky's role is widely publicised, similar shareholders concerns (Conniston Partners) were what ultimately did in Richard Ferris as well. H@!!, the pilots and some other employees have been pushing John McDannel for either the CEO or president position for almost 10 months now, to no avail. Seems that he would be a shoe in, if the employees held all the control that people think they have. Bottom line, the employees were never in control of the company. ESOP is part of the problem in the sense that people feel that they were hoodwinked into a deal that was something different than imagined, but it's not the big deal that it's made up to be and its removal will not be the panacea people expect it to be-although revisionist history may write it that way!! If you feel UA's problem's center around high labor costs, that's a fine opinion to have just don't get mixed up as to the reasons why those costs exist. They were obtained through traditional RLA bargaining just like the pilots at Northwest, Comair, etc. The biggest problem with the ESOP is what management did with the money, and their cultivation of a expectations that they had no intention of fullfilling.
 
superfueler--

you don't have a clue and it shows by your experience. unions are good because they keep management in check. in this cyclical industry do think it would be fair for airlines making record profits at the employees expense to continue to pay them peanuts. your coming into the industry at the worst possible time and all you see is union greed this and union greed that. trust me your views will change with the state of the industry.

single point rules!!

fatburger
 
I have dealt with unions in the past, and I am FAR better off now, working in a non-union line service job, than I was when I was at a unionized one, so please don't tell me I don't know anything about this area. I do agree that pilot unions do some good things in the area of safety, and perhaps they are needed because of that, but unions for us ground pounders are out of control. The union reps and executives are out for their own good, not the good of the workers.
 
Yada, Yada, I just want to keep track of this thread and tomorrow is the big day for UAL to make history. Sad, Sad, Bin Laden has to been celebrating right now.
 
For those who dont read Mike Boyd, Aviation Consultant, heres what he has to say about a UAL BK filing. I wholly agree with 100& of what he says on this.

Hot Flash - December 9, 2002

United Bankruptcy: It Might Not Fix The Problem
A World Class Airline. World Class Employees
All They Need Now Is World Class Leadership

United's rank-and-file deserve better than this.

A world-class airline. Sophisticated service delivery. A first-rate employee team. Strong brand loyalty. All directed by a Board and senior management that have behaved over the past three years like a pack of gypsies in the palace.

It gets a bit wearisome hearing the confident news stories blaming United's fall from financial grace on the carrier's employees and their pay rates. Get this: the employee concessions, as noble as they were, could not save the airline from bankruptcy. The loyalty and dedication of United's rank and file, as strong as it is, cannot fully counter-balance the mess caused by a string to inept moves inflicted over a period of years on the airline by a lack of sound strategic planning at the top.

The post-9/11 airline business is one 20% smaller, in terms of passenger revenue, than the one that existed on 9/10. Back then, all airlines faced a catastrophic situation. Today, the proof is on the balance sheet regarding which airlines had truly wartime-quality management and which did not. Last quarter, Continental, for example, was essentially at operational break-even. United lost almost a billion dollars. The core reason: United entered the post-9/11 situation less prepared at the corporate top than any other airline.

Somebody Forgot They Had An Airline To Run. We can go back and look at history. The gypsies have been in full-party mode for at least three years. In year 2000, at a time when most of United's employees had not had a meaningful salary increase since 1994, United management squandered over a hundred million dollars fooling around with an expensive and ill-conceived attempted merger with US Airways. (Which, by the way, United, not the DOJ, ultimately terminated.) Then there was the Avolar business jet fiasco - another dumb, non-airline vapor hole into which United's senior management tossed tens of millions before canceling the venture. While their competitors stopped in their tracks to re-structure after 9/11 in the face of huge losses, the Goodwin team continued on sending money to Europe to buy business jets for this non-airline business venture. Then Goodwin got his severance and United's board of directors allowed the airline to drift without a strategy or a permanent CEO for almost a year.

Finally, the Board spent $7.5 million in cash to hire a CEO with no airline experience. A fine, high-quality person with lots of great business experience, and impeccable credentials. That might have been okay in peace time, where such expertise could bring new perspectives. But this was a crisis situation, and what United needed desperately was a man with a plan. (Or woman.) United could ill-afford the luxury of having a new CEO diddling around learning the business, holding task-team meetings, and make rambling statements about bringing "stakeholders" together. United needed a CEO who would arrive with all guns blazing, and with a clear vision for United from day one.

And that becomes even more important when a company is in Chapter 11. Remember, once "chapter" is filed, there are dozens of entities that get involved, some of them absolute fruitcakes. Therefore, a strong, clearly-focused management is critical to keeping the airline on course to re-organize. If it degenerates into a "I've got a better idea" free-for-all among creditors committees, the airline is done for.

Weak Management Is More Expensive Than High Labor Rates. It's a failure of senior management that has engineered United into this quagmire, yet some people still blame labor for this circus. Actually, regardless of whether the IAM, the AFA, and ALPA were paid lavishly or with company scrip,the airline would still today be looking down the ugly barrel of bankruptcy. An airline needs tightly-focused management, and that's not exactly what's been going on at the top rungs at United over the past three years.

The ATSB Episode: Screwing Up By The Numbers. Then there was the ATSB rejection, which some still - incorrectly - say caused United to head to the bankruptcy court. But this loan-guarantee rejection was another inside job. The apparent strategy of United management (if you can call it that) was to get the guarantees for loans that would allow them to simply keep-on keeping-on. Not much else. US Airways went in with a clear plan regarding how they would do things differently. United did not. There seemed to be little explanation of how they would manage differently, and what their going-forward plan was to strategically bring the airline out of this situation. It appeared that the loan guarantee was intended mainly to buy time, and not as part of a tactical, comprehensive re-organization program. All they really offered the ATSB were the financial scalps of employees in the form of wage concessions. There is a reason they got turned down: their numbers were totally unconvincing.

Okay. Now What? Forget the comparisons with past airline bankruptcies. This one would likely be really different. United is seeking $1.5 billion in debtor-in-possession financing. Lord only knows what the terms might be. They have reportedly hired some PR firms to do programs to calm the passenger herd. And that's where the future of United will be - the consumer. If they let their front-line people loose, free of dumb rules, intrusive procedures, and service policies dreamed up by deranged MBAs in back rooms, United will be well on its way to recovery.

That is, of course, if the carrier's management decides what it really wants to be.

© 2002 The Boyd Group/ASRC, Inc.
 
ATSB Rejection Letter

And for those who havent read it, the actual ATSB rejection letter, as posted on the UAL AFA website.

AIR TRANSPORTATION STABILIZATION BOARD

December 4, 2002

Mr. Frederick Brace
Executive Vice President
and Chief Financial Officer
United Air Lines, Inc.
P.O. Box 66100
Chicago, IL 60666


Dear Mr. Brace:

This letter refers to the application of United Air Lines, Inc. (“United”), dated June 21, 2002 as supplemented (the “Application”) to the Air Transportation Stabilization Board (the “Board”), for a Federal loan guarantee under the Air Transportation Safety and System Stabilization Act, Pub. L. No. 107-42, 115 Stat. 230 (the “Act”) and the regulations promulgated thereunder, 14 CFR Part 1300 (the “Regulations”).

The Board staff and the broader working group, consisting of representatives of the Board’s voting members, have reviewed and considered all the materials submitted by United, as well as the explanatory information presented by United at our meetings beginning in April 2002, throughout the summer, and on October 28, November 5, November 11, November 12, November 20 and November 26. The Board staff asked United a series of questions (as referenced in your letter of November 27) and carefully considered the company’s answers. Also, the Board’s financial, industry and legal consultants have submitted their reports and analyses which have been taken into consideration. In addition, the Board staff has prepared for the Board members a comprehensive analysis of all these materials. The voting Board members held discussions of these materials at meetings on November 4, November 26 and December 4, 2002.

Based on this information and applying the criteria set forth in the Act and the Regulations, the Board cannot approve the proposal submitted by United. The Board believes that the business plan proposed by United is not financially sound. In the Board’s view, United’s management presented a business plan that does not position the company to meet the challenges of the current airline industry environment and to achieve long-term financial stability. The Board believes that, even if the company were to receive the proceeds of a guaranteed loan, there is a high probability that United would face another liquidity crisis within the next few years. The Board’s financial consultant assigned the proposed loan an extremely low credit rating, implying that United is more likely than not to default. The Board believes that the company’s proposal poses an unacceptably high risk to U.S. taxpayers and does not support the conclusion that there is a reasonable assurance of repayment of the proposed loan. The Board would like to make you aware of the following fundamental deficiencies in United’s proposal:

First, the Board has concluded that United’s revenue projections are unreasonably optimistic.

• United’s business plan is predicated upon a significant near-term rebound in revenue. In particular, United forecasts that its passenger unit revenue (revenue per available seat mile) will rise sharply in the near-term due to a significant increase in yields. This forecast for unit revenue growth in the next few years is substantially more optimistic than forecasts of industry observers and the Board’s consultants. The Board does not concur with United’s explanation for this divergence.

• The more conservative alternative projections submitted by United, which assume a delayed industry revenue recovery, anticipate near-term unit revenue growth that is still in excess of the base case expectations of industry observers.

• The Board also believes that the company’s revenue forecast does not make sufficient allowance for the likely effects of continued expansion by low-cost carriers in United’s markets as well as other potential structural changes affecting industry revenue.

Second, the Board believes that more reasonable revenue forecasts for United would not support the company’s cost structure as presented in the business plan. The Board notes that even with the benefit of United’s proposed cost reduction initiatives, United would remain among the highest cost carriers in the industry. If competitors are successful in achieving additional cost savings, United’s relative cost position could weaken further.

Third, the Board has substantial concerns about the underfunded status of United’s pension plan. Even if United obtains a waiver to reduce near-term funding requirements, required cash outflows will likely remain substantial over the term of the proposed loan. The Board is concerned about United’s ability to generate sufficient cash flows to meet its pension funding obligations concurrent with other obligations, including repayment of the guaranteed loan.

Fourth, United has proposed that the loan be secured by a significant collection of assets. The proposed collateral package does not overcome the deficiencies of the business plan and associated default risk. Analysis by the Board’s consultants and staff indicates that the collateral package is likely to have substantially less value in the event of default than is estimated by United. The Board believes that there is a significant risk that the recovery value will be less than the outstanding amount of the loan.

Finally, the Board considered United's proposal of November 26, 2002 for a staggered draw on the loan facility. The Board did not view the alternative structure as a material change to United’s proposal. The Board’s financial consultant assessed this proposal and affirmed the credit rating it had previously assigned. Two members of the Board also believe that the suggested revisions that United proposed by e-mail and fax on the evening of December 3 are highly unlikely to change their assessment of United’s proposal.

Considering all of the foregoing factors, Governor Gramlich and Under Secretary Fisher voted not to approve this proposal. Mr. Van Tine, General Counsel of the Department of Transportation, voted to defer a decision on the Application until December 9 to allow United to submit additional financial information.

Sincerely,

Daniel Montgomery
 
Don't the employees own UAL? They shot themselves in the foot. I think if the mechanics would have agreed to the pay cut. The government would have given them the loan. They didn't want to help themselves so why should the government help them? It's better to have a job and take a little pay cut, rather than standing in the un-employment line.
 
55% ownership does NOT equate to 55% voting power. Not even close. Carefully read the above post by Marko Ramius. This may be an answer your statement.
 
Dep676

Dep676,,

Scroll up one message from your own, and read the ATSB's own reasons for rejecting UAL. They blamed management almost entirely.

While you're scrolling, read Marko Ramius' excellent post regarding the true story about the ESOP.

regards.
8N
 
country

One thing about this country is that we always want to have a specific bad guy to blame things on.

It would be great if we had a Frank Lorenzo or someone like that we could paint a black hat on and plummel.

Unfortunately, in the United case, things are not that clearly defined. Sure management did a poor job and it is even easier to point to the Avolar deal in hind sight and be critical.

Then there was the groups that slowed down labor negotiations by following the letter of the law and that led to business travelers looking for another carrier.

None of these things make any difference now.
 
Don't for a minute buy the insanity that labour is costing too much. It always comes to the poor performance of management not labour. They can pay 777 captains $600.00 per hour and it wouldn't affect the bottom line that much.
 
That's a might optimistic!!!!

jsoceanlord said:
$450,000/year pay for a 747-400 capt is too much., especially when cross country fares are $150.

Top pay rate I believe is about $296.00 an at max scale. How you get $450,000 a year out of that is beyond even with per diem. Are you one of the of guys who compares UAL 747 max scale pay rates to year 1 SWA Captain pay rates to say everything is out of whack?
 

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