UAL, Jetblue may see a Reversal of Fortunes.

[Falconjet]

Lake Alice: You don't know me from Adam, and I admitted to being ignorant. Why the attacks?

I didn't blame jB for anything. I disagree with the statement that just because jB pilots make more than UA pilots now they had nothing to do with the downward trend of pilot wages.

I don't see that as a logical statement. Do you? I used some facts to illustrate my thought process. What facts do you offer?

Of course jB is not to blame for the many ills of the industry right now, I pretty much said that in my original post. I just put some facts out there to dispute a poor arguement that jB wages had NOTHING to do with downward trends in the industry's wages.

If that makes me a complete friggen moron so be it.

FJ

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I am saying that just by saying that you are on top now does not absolve the company of exerting downward pressure on wages in the past. I am saying that the company did exert downward pressure on industry wages.

That is all I am saying.

As for the size issue, do you think that just because DHL is smaller than FedEx and UPS that we shouldn't be worried about their wages? Any market forces in the downward direction will impact the rest of the industry. Maybe not a lot, but some.

Jb ain't on top of any pay scale. Nor benefits scale. I do think we fly more crazier people from New York to Florida, though. We have definitely cornered that market.

Can anyone argue that workers coming into any industry willing to work for roughly half the pay of current workers will have no effect on that industry's overall wages? Anyone.

Isn't that why everybody (ok, half of the people) on here hates Walmart? Downward pressure on wages and benefits?

After all, they were small at one time too.

FJ

That's union talk, no disrespect intended. Jb was WAY TOO FREAKIN' small to exert this so-called downward pressure on wages back then. It's just a convenient company to place blame on when both management and ALPA can't find the trees, much less the forest.

 

[regionaltard]

(Doron Levin is a Bloomberg News columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.)

I believe they mispelled his first name. I think it is actually MORON Levin.

Sounds like someone just peed in your Blool Aid bowl.....

 

[JP4user]

Lake Alice: You don't know me from Adam, and I admitted to being ignorant. Why the attacks?

I didn't blame jB for anything. I disagree with the statement that just because jB pilots make more than UA pilots now they had nothing to do with the downward trend of pilot wages.

I don't see that as a logical statement. Do you? I used some facts to illustrate my thought process. What facts do you offer?

Of course jB is not to blame for the many ills of the industry right now, I pretty much said that in my original post. I just put some facts out there to dispute a poor arguement that jB wages had NOTHING to do with downward trends in the industry's wages.

If that makes me a complete friggen moron so be it.

FJ

Falcon:

On this board any differing opinion other than a stellar sales job for Blue will illicit those type of responses from Blue boys like Alice. If you keep it up you will soon find yourself being micromanaged about typos, that you can "reapply" in a few months and other lame responses.

Insecurity manifests itself in many ways.

 

[Propblast]

Propblast, ya got me on the 10A vs K; typed faster than I proofread. :0

However, I disagree that ticket prices would have been profitable; please find me a quarter when BELF was below 100%. FLYI got closer in the end when more Airbii came on line, but it wasn't enough to overcome the high RJ CASM.

As for UAL matching fares, UAL lowered but rarely matched. For fuel prices, everyone except Southwest had to cope with higher fuel prices. FLYI's business plan did not take into account any adverse problems.

And again, seriously, good luck at JetBlue. They're a good company. I loved flying fifi; especially the 110 pound tray table (that's the max weight that the tray table can withstand ).

Sure, UAL had matched prices on lots of flights in IAD. In fact, for a while there was an advertisement on the radio that intentionally pointed out that the prices were matched and that UAL had been the airline that served IAD longer than any other and had a better FF program. Had fuel prices not dramatically risen coupled with the matching of fares BELF would have been lower. At the time of start, with an average fare of $75ow, the BELF was about 75% - that was with oil at about $47/barrel (I know we laugh at that now, but in the summer of 2004 that was the norm!). Once UAL matched the line was held, unable to raise fares substantially, FLYI bled out eventually. Two huge mistakes made were not hedging when the financial position was better and having a fuel savings program in place from day one. The biggest mistake was overemphasizing a IAD hub.

Thanks again for the well-wishes - I am looking forward to fi-fi.

-PB

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Falcon:

On this board any differing opinion other than a stellar sales job for Blue will illicit those type of responses from Blue boys like Alice.

Insecurity manifests itself in many ways.

There are plenty of differing opinions on this board from jb pilots. You just choose to focus on the more die-hard. They satisfy your need to get on here and post ridiculous claims such as the one above. We know you want jb to fail, we get it. Move on to another thread or board, or contribute something of value to the discussion. You NEVER post anything that could be construed as valuable criticism of those "blue boys." And that's why your phony sense of bonding with Falconjet against the "tyranny" of jb opinions will fail. No one sees you as a credible contributor to this board. Now maybe you are the BBJ Captain SME on the corporate side of flightinfo, but on this board you just come off as an ass.

I saw your edit -- "typos", are you kidding me?

 

[JP4user]

There are plenty of differing opinions on this board from jb pilots. You just choose to focus on the more die-hard. They satisfy your need to get on here and post ridiculous claims such as the one above. We know you want jb to fail, we get it. Move on to another thread or board, or contribute something of value to the discussion. You NEVER post anything that could be construed as valuable criticism of those "blue boys." And that's why your phony sense of bonding with Falconjet against the "tyranny" of jb opinions will fail. No one sees you as a credible contributor to this board. Now maybe you are the BBJ Captain SME on the corporate side of flightinfo, but on this board you just come off as an ass.

I saw your edit -- "typos", are you kidding me?

LOL...see what I mean? Insecurity manifests itself in so many ways.

I don't want JB to fail either. I want you guys to grow a sack and tell management to raise the 190 rates and quit trying to screw with fars to start with. But talk like that won't get your 5 year contract renewed will it now? There you go. Now you have three areas of valuable criticism. I could list a fourth but I am not supposed to talk about your other "duties".

Not sure what your meant about the edit. Does every post have to be perfect and nothing can be added later?

Bonding? LMAO!!

 

[Bavarian Chef]

LOL...see what I mean? Insecurity manifests itself in so many ways.

I don't want JB to fail either. I want you guys to grow a sack and tell management to raise the 190 rates and quit trying to screw with fars to start with. But talk like that won't get your 5 year contract renewed will it now?

Not sure what your meant about the edit. Does every post have to be perfect and nothing can be added later?

Bonding? LMAO!!

There is no insecurity here.

Just post something of value. Try it. It will make you feel so good. I got an idea, read the whole thread about the 190. Good stuff on there and, gasp, it's not all about the koolaid.

If I use your logic: I want those DL, NWA, Comair pilots -- you name it to "grow a sack". Maybe if they wouldn't take pay cuts, we could point to their higher rates and demand some parity. As it is, we're just freakin' industry standard.

DO NOT try to pretend that you occupy some high ground about jb and its future. YOU ABSOLUTELY WANT JB TO FAIL and every single post you make is about as subtle as a fart in church and as loony as a football bat.

190 pay rates? FARs? Come on dude, you gotta have better. Most every jb pilot on this board agrees with you on those issues. Is it the cabin cleaning? Flight attendants with slits up their skirts? Okay, sometimes that's a perk.

Typos -- I read your first post wrong.

 

[JP4user]

There is no insecurity here.

Just post something of value. Try it. It will make you feel so good. I got an idea, read the whole thread about the 190. Good stuff on there and, gasp, it's not all about the koolaid.

If I use your logic: I want those DL, NWA, Comair pilots -- you name it to "grow a sack". Maybe if they wouldn't take pay cuts, we could point to their higher rates and demand some parity. As it is, we're just freakin' industry standard.

DO NOT try to pretend that you occupy some high ground about jb and its future. YOU ABSOLUTELY WANT JB TO FAIL and every single post you make is about as subtle as a fart in church and as loony as a football bat.

190 pay rates? FARs? Come on dude, you gotta have better. Most every jb pilot on this board agrees with you on those issues. Is it the cabin cleaning? Flight attendants with slits up their skirts? Okay, sometimes that's a perk.

Typos -- I read your first post wrong.

Chef......it is about the kool aid. You guys are really fooling yourself if you think for an instant the 190 rates are going to go up. Look at the financials and performance and be honest with yourself. Do you really think that any of the lenders, creditors and other stakeholders won't roast Neeleman alive if he raises the rates? The 190 horse has already left the barn and she ain't coming back.

You are absolutley right about the ALPA carriers. They have been acting just as spineless...but the problem is the matching the lcc payrate mantra. My disgust is just as deep with them but the difference is that I believe that they have the mechanism to reverse the trend with better leadership than from Woerthless and his band of merry men. The stench that rolls down from Herndon has infected a lot of mec's, but times are changing.

What can you guys really do at Blue? You are all hamstrung from the start with the contract. I know the the flip side how great everything is and what a swell place it is to work. Let's see what happens when the financial screws get a little tighter and how management acts then. The contract will become a noose around all of your necks.

I don't want JB to fail. I just don't want JB to keep setting the examples that legacy carrier managements are drooling over. Low wages and flimsy retirements, work rules that can be changed on a whim (your 190 check airman for example), absurd productivity changes by far's, 5 year contracts...which are essentially a union death sentence etc. etc.

Slit in the skirts? We are in agreement.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Chef......it is about the kool aid. You guys are really fooling yourself if you think for an instant the 190 rates are going to go up. Look at the financials and performance and be honest with yourself. Do you really think that any of the lenders, creditors and other stakeholders won't roast Neeleman alive if he raises the rates? The 190 horse has already left the barn and she ain't coming back.

That's a bold statement to make for someone who doesn't work for the company. We'll see about the payrates, and I bet its sooner than later.

You are absolutley right about the ALPA carriers. They have been acting just as spineless...but the problem is the matching the lcc payrate mantra. My disgust is just as deep with them but the difference is that I believe that they have the mechanism to reverse the trend with better leadership that come from Woerthless and his band of merry men. The stench that rolls down from Herndon has infected a lot of mec's, but times are changing.

Do you really think the legacies point to an airline with 1600 pilots as the reason why they justify their lower pay rates? Come on dude. Should we then blame Hooters Air for ours? Off topic: now there was a concept!

Low wages and flimsy retirements, work rules that can be changed on a whim (your 190 check airman for example), absurd productivity changes by far's, 5 year contracts...which are essentially a union death sentence etc. etc.

Those can be changed with a TA as well.

 

[JP4user]

That's a bold statement to make for someone who doesn't work for the company. We'll see about the payrates, and I bet its sooner than later.



Do you really think the legacies point to an airline with 1600 pilots as the reason why they justify their lower pay rates? Come on dude. Should we then blame Hooters Air for ours? Off topic: now there was a concept!



Those can be changed with a TA as well.

Chef.....you don't have to work somewhere to observe the obvious when it comes to financials and employee compensation or increasing it for that matter. I will repeat that I do hope you reverse the trends with the 190.

Yes the legacies management do point to Blue. They are afraid of Blue for numerous reasons and only react with the stale MBA logic of cutting employee pay to compete. You guys have more of an influence than you give yourselves credit for. That is surprising given the attitudes by some Blue guys about
many subjects.

TA...how? With what bargaining agent? Who is really going to go in and grab your management by the nut sack and hammer out an agreement? By design you are hobbled from the start.

Hooters Air....yes...it was a concept. See, we agree on more than you think!

 

[oldxfr8dog]

As a five-year captain here, I make far more than a 5-year United A-320 captain.

Counting overtime pay is deceptive. The 150% rate over 70 hours is meant to motivate people to be more productive and shouldn't be included when discussing payscales.
You make $121 bucks an hour and the UA Capt makes $122.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

TA...how? With what bargaining agent? Who is really going to go in and grab your management by the nut sack and hammer out an agreement? By design you are hobbled from the start.

See how easy it is to post when you ain't angry!

I meant the TAs at some unnamed union carriers. All of the things you mentioned -- Low wages and flimsy retirements, work rules that can be changed on a whim (your 190 check airman for example), absurd productivity changes by far's, 5 year contracts...which are essentially a union death sentence etc. etc.-- have been ratified in various forms in the last 6 months (except the 5 year contract of course).

I am actually in favor of a union, just don't tell anyone.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Counting overtime pay is deceptive. The 150% rate over 70 hours is meant to motivate people to be more productive and shouldn't be included when discussing payscales.
You make $121 bucks an hour and the UA Capt makes $122.

Amen brutha. Take away premium pay and I bet productivity falls.

 

[Falconjet]

Jb ain't on top of any pay scale. Nor benefits scale. I do think we fly more crazier people from New York to Florida, though. We have definitely cornered that market.

Those were Blue Bayou's words, not mine.


That's union talk, no disrespect intended. Jb was WAY TOO FREAKIN' small to exert this so-called downward pressure on wages back then. It's just a convenient company to place blame on when both management and ALPA can't find the trees, much less the forest.

We're discussing industry wages. If ANY number of workers enter the workforce at a fraction of the prevailing wages, the industry wages WILL go down. Its not union talk, its just mathematics and economics.

Again, I'm not making judgments or blame, I am just citing some facts that some might use to make the conclusion that Blue Bayou says is incorrect.

FJ

 

[Nado]

For the record-
-How many guys have not had their 5 year contracts renewed at JB?
-How many JBrs have been furloughed?
-How many have been punished for 'speaking out of turn'?

Far as I can tell 0.

The bus guys got pay raises after the plane proved itself, word on the street is that the 190 guys are about to see the same thing.
I am sure it won't be enough for some, but it is the opposite way most carriers pay has been going, not enough for the bomb throwers on this board, but it is a start.

I do think Blue has a lot of influence, two airlines within airlines were started when they had about 30 planes. Why fly mainline,right?

Why be part of a union to 'negotiate', or as JP4 says 'grab our management by the nutsack' when all management has to say is 'Well, jetblues payrate is X'. I HOPE ALPA has a response, or I would want my %2 in mean 1.95% back, and I better get a nice laptop as well.

If I was a JB guy thinking about union v. no union, ALPA hasn't exactly done much to make me want to improve my life with there way of doing things. Apparently, a contract isn't really a contract. I know a lot of ex ALPA JBrs, and they miss ALPA like they miss intestinal flu. Something about a no-fulough 'guarantee' among a lot of other things.

I think I am going to head to the coporate board, where JP4 works, and go JP4 on them. I'll tell them all that I think is wrong with the everything over there and how I am disgusted by the way everything is with everything they do. Then I am going to call them names, ridicule, berate, taunt and tease them. I think they will listen to what I have to say and maybe I can change a few minds along the way.

 

[JP4user]

Nado...keep that head buried in the sand. Everything will work out just fine that way for you.