UAL Files CH 11

[TurboS7]

If AA feels that UAL being Chapter 11 gives them an unfair marketing advantage then AA will file. AA is bleeding even worse than UAL, UAL should have filed in the spring, I would not be surprised to see AA file very soon.

 

[328dude]

Whats your guys thoughts on the fact that since United filed today, this will hurt US Airways emerging from Chapter 11 since the two carriers formed an alliance? Do you think it will hinder USAirways?

 

[adam_jorgensen]

What is all this talk about bankruptcy's in the USA? Why are so many airlines going belly up? You go to Canada, and its very quite right now. No talk of bankruptcy or anything and we are actually hiring pilots in all of our major airlines. Maybe you guys should move to Canada? We did have one of our major airlines go belly up 2 years ago. It was called Canada 3000. Is anybody familiar with that airline? Well they not only went bankrupt, the whole airline shut down and no longer exists. We used to have an airline called CP air and greyhound air too which some of you might of heard of. CP flew a really long time ago and greyhound was finished in a matter of months of just after starting. But never have I heard of an airline this major going under. I couldn't see it happening to Air Canada because their owned by the government. Good if your a pilot, bad if your a passenger.

Some people might not know this, but how many more years do you think it will be before there are any more major hiring's for the majors? 10? 13? (I hope)

 

[V-1]

So, let's say AA is next in line to file.

If that were the case, why wouldn't AA management say to it's employees:
"See United? We're next. We need to cut the airline by ?50%?, shut down all of our unprofitable operations immediately and reduce the cost structure BEFORE things get out of control"?????

Why don't you ever see this happen?

It's happening:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/business/delta/1202/09american.html



[ The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: 12/9/02 ]

American Airlines asks employees for pay freeze


Associated Press

Dallas -- American Airlines, the world's largest carrier, asked employees Friday to forego pay raises they are due next year to help the company stem massive losses.

American, whose parent company lost nearly $3 billion in the first nine months of this year, said cancelling pay raises would save $130 million.

Chairman and chief executive Donald Carty has said the company needs to cut $4 billion in annual costs and has found about half of that by laying off workers, mothballing planes, cancelling orders for new jets, reducing food service and other changes.

"The restructuring of our labor agreements is inevitable and fundamental to our long-term goal of remaining competitive and restoring profitability," Carty and president Gerard Arpey said in a letter Friday to employee groups.

Carty also said he and other managers would go without raises for the second straight year.

American's flight attendants are scheduled to get a 3 percent raise on Jan. 1 and additional raises in July. Mechanics and others represented by the Transport Workers Union are due to get a 3 percent increase March 1.

Nonunion airport and reservations agents are scheduled for an average 90-cent hourly wage increase next year, the company said. Pilots are not due for an increase.

The major U.S. airlines are expected to lose about $9 billion this year and trace many of their difficulties to a weak economy and travelers' reluctance to fly after last year's terrorist attacks.

 

[bobbysamd]

Canadian airlines

What is all this talk about bankruptcy's in the USA? Why are so many airlines going belly up? You go to Canada, and its very quite right now. No talk of bankruptcy or anything and we are actually hiring pilots in all of our major airlines. Maybe you guys should move to Canada? . . . .

This is a highly complex issue and I wouldn't even pretend to have all the answers or analysis. I do have a couple of thoughts.

For one thing, the U.S. was already in a recession. My theory is the recession actually started in mid-2000, when stock prices started to fall. At the end of that year, electricity prices were doing strange things. Coincidentally, Enron, who was a major electricity broker, was a player. We know what's happened to Enron.

Like it or not, by 911 the country was going through recession. Then came 911, and that gave impetus to the recession. Very similar to the Gulf War era and that recession. During this time, airlines were having trouble and 911 gave impetus to their troubles.

United was one of the airlines which had an aircraft involved in 911. To put it mildly, 911 certainly didn't help its cause. Also, United was dealing with employees' salary givebacks which were in arrears. United has had some big debt come due, thanks to its expansion plans when times were good.

Those are a couple of my .02 ideas about why United has had trouble. U was having its troubles beforehand. United tried to acquire U, and that was a fiasco.

It's not that easy for Americans to get jobs in Canada. I asked about it when I was looking for a commuter airline job. For one thing, Canadians receive first consideration. The Americans in question would have to obtain the right to work in Canada. Finally, they have to convert their U.S. certificates to Canadian licenses.

Hope that at least partially answers your question.

 

[Publishers]

Now

A good deal of what happens here on out is the struggle for passengers between UAL and US. They can get into a competitive thing that tends to hurt those who are more secure like AA.

Meanwhile SWA will continue to pick off their better routes. Labor will change over all this.

No matter how this comes out, United has made the farthest fall from grace. The question is was it a suicide, a homicide, or manslaughter.

 

[goldentrout]

Suicide

The employees asked for outrageous compensation packages without apparently analyzing the long term viability of their requests.

And then all those super educated, Yale and Harvard management graduates agreed to their terms, along with trying to buy an airline that had almost as much debt as itself, if not more!

A UAL pilot told me today

"We and management did this to ourselves. Management pissed away a ton of money with the whole UAL merger thing, and then we in retaliation, stuck it to them with our demands in our last contract. Additionally, to "prove our point' to management, our work slowdown of 2000 drove off loyal business passengers, which have never come back."

Vengeance, greed, death (in the metaphorical sense)...this is starting to play our like a Greek tragedy.

 

[Majik]

I read an article several months ago that said, "During the year preceeding 9/11, had all of United's employees worked for free, United would have still lost money."
Sorry Hoss, but I gotta throw most of that blame in managements direction.

 

[VFR on Top]

I think it's time for these megabucks MBAs running these companies to start earning their keep; if they can't manage effectively, why should they make more than people who actually do their jobs effectively? The number of companies getting their money's worth out of their overpaid CEO has got to be pretty small.

 

[Dieterly]

One year ago...