Ual-alpa t/a leak......

[P38JLightning]

Bring the 70-90 seat jets on mainline property and we'll be more than glad to fly them here for JetBlue or MidAtlantic E190 payrates.. but give them up to express and we're all screwed for years. Look at Lufthansa.. they just gave up their strongest scope. Still don't know why..

You will never see 70-90 seat jets at a mainline for JetBlue E190 pay. If those planes are to be flown at mainline (or at least with exclusively mainline pilots) then you will have to agree to current market rates (SkyWest/ASA/CoEx/Comair/Mesaba/CHQ/etc) rates and ALL contractual terms (work rules, tiny retirement contributions, etc).

That will be the ONLY way to begin to insource those lost pilot jobs. JB E190 rates won't happen for those planes until decades of successful insourcing take place.

 

[Deerkiller]

Every purchase of a product or service that provides a low price due to outsourcing is a vote for outsourcing.

We go to the Cheesecake Factory Rest. Its good. The illegal labor in the kitchen staff and the illegal labor that picked the tomatoes and lettuce is a vote not only for outsourcing but it is a beacon for any Central or South American who wants to attempt the border crossing.

You know of illegal labor? Have you informed the authorities?

No, but you still have to support via govt programs the legal American who can't compete with the low wages that the illegal is willing to work. Or do you expect a legal American to work for illegal wages?

So as a consumer base, we pay illegal labors' low wages and we pay welfare, food stamps and child health programs for legal Americans who have decided that govt assistance is a better deal.....

Yup, sucks.

Sorry but it is not this easy....

Just like you don't care if others have fought and lost the outsourcing battle, no one cares if pilots lose the outsourcing battle. Listen to yourself talk in the above quote... basically what you are saying is "I don't care about you, but I care about me...." Problem is, there are 300M consumers that don't care about your pilot job and what the same thing you want in any given industry... low prices....

That's not what I said. The point of that sentence was that just because the fight over outsourcing in other areas has been lost doesn't mean I'm just gonna roll over and allow it in my industry.

We can't keep feeding this insatiable machine called The Hyper Consumption Economy... The race to the bottom is designed to get a few people rich as it discards the rest of us.....

Consider this... if every product and service in our economy had a label that said "illegal labor free". First off, if every purchase had a label that said Made with Illegal Labor, many wouldn't care but many would be shocked to see how much of our economy is based up illegal labor.

Are you willing to pay for more for products and services that are illegal labor free? Are you willing to scale back on your consumption? Certainly as pilots we want people to buy a ticket that affords a fair pilot wage....

You can't have your cake and eat it too......

A vast majority of this will be solved when consumers decide to stop voting for outsourcing..... yet it is so engrained into our culture.

Do you even think that most people even consider there is illegal products and services at major corporate restaruant chains?

You are correct. The buying public has turned a blind eye to what happens behind the curtain, just to save a few bucks. Yes, I am willing to pay more for services. Like I said in my previous post I make an effort to buy American made products, preferably crafted by union labor. However, we all know these products are decreasing in number everyday. And I will fight tooth and nail to prevent it in airline jobs.

I'm not real sure why it is you're against it...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You know of illegal labor? Have you informed the authorities?

Nope. No need. The authorities or the Fed Govt simply don't have the manpower or the desire to combat what the people really want... It is like the war on drugs.... a facade.

Yup, sucks.

Agreed... however, most citizens, er I mean consumers are either uninformed or indifferent. Got to have to low prices.

That's not what I said. The point of that sentence was that just because the fight over outsourcing in other areas has been lost doesn't mean I'm just gonna roll over and allow it in my industry.

I understand what you are saying but you can't expect 300M potential airline passengers to care about pilot outsourcing when pilots patronize outsourcing in other industries..

You are correct. The buying public has turned a blind eye to what happens behind the curtain, just to save a few bucks. Yes, I am willing to pay more for services. Like I said in my previous post I make an effort to buy American made products, preferably crafted by union labor. However, we all know these products are decreasing in number everyday. And I will fight tooth and nail to prevent it in airline jobs.

I'm not real sure why it is you're against it...

I am not against it... the issue is.. how do we make a difference when 300M consumers are plugged into the "matrix"......

It is going to take a lot of pain amongts the 300M to reach critical mass to effect change....

Have you read
The Shock Doctrine
and
The Value of Nothing

 

[Jetjockey]

You will never see 70-90 seat jets at a mainline for JetBlue E190 pay. If those planes are to be flown at mainline (or at least with exclusively mainline pilots) then you will have to agree to current market rates (SkyWest/ASA/CoEx/Comair/Mesaba/CHQ/etc) rates and ALL contractual terms (work rules, tiny retirement contributions, etc).

That will be the ONLY way to begin to insource those lost pilot jobs. JB E190 rates won't happen for those planes until decades of successful insourcing take place.

You won't see them at the new UAL, CAL scope will remain. The jobs aren't lost, they remain thanks to CAL scope. I got 7 months cash reserve and a comfortable pair of walking shoes to ensure that's a fact. Anything less and this job isn't worth it anymore.

 

[taxicabdriver]

Was just told by our union that we can't get scope back....The contracts at UAL are already in place with various regionals and can't be broken...I'm so PO'd right now I cant see straight. After finding out now we don't need separate ratifications of the new JCBA whenever its negotiated....WOW....Scope was the biggest no-deal for me and now he just tells me we can't expect to hold onto CAL's scope protection... Any scope relief is a NO vote for me and now we are stuck with UAL's scope at the best-case scenario....I say burn baby burn

 

[trip]

Bring the 70-90 seat jets on mainline property and we'll be more than glad to fly them here for JetBlue or MidAtlantic E190 payrates.. but give them up to express and we're all screwed for years. Look at Lufthansa.. they just gave up their strongest scope. Still don't know why..

Yea well the best opportunity to make that happen just slipped away over at DL, when it comes down to it there is no stomach at the mainline MEC to push for it. It's far easier to gripe and scoff/ blame regionals for all thats wrong in the industry today.

 

[Jetjockey]

Was just told by our union that we can't get scope back....The contracts at UAL are already in place with various regionals and can't be broken...I'm so PO'd right now I cant see straight. After finding out now we don't need separate ratifications of the new JCBA whenever its negotiated....WOW....Scope was the biggest no-deal for me and now he just tells me we can't expect to hold onto CAL's scope protection... Any scope relief is a NO vote for me and now we are stuck with UAL's scope at the best-case scenario....I say burn baby burn

Many assumptions here. What makes you think that the UAL pilots will vote on anything that doesn't improve on scope. Status-quo IS NOT acceptable. Freeze any airframes above 50 seats right where they are at. No new contracts, no contract renewals. A metered phase out. We are not stuck with anything............yet.

 

[EWR_FO]

Was just told by our union that we can't get scope back....The contracts at UAL are already in place with various regionals and can't be broken...I'm so PO'd right now I cant see straight. After finding out now we don't need separate ratifications of the new JCBA whenever its negotiated....WOW....Scope was the biggest no-deal for me and now he just tells me we can't expect to hold onto CAL's scope protection... Any scope relief is a NO vote for me and now we are stuck with UAL's scope at the best-case scenario....I say burn baby burn

I call bull**it, contracts CAN be broken. They also all have to be renegotiated eventually. Whoever told you that is talking out of his a**.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Scope is an issue that will lead to a strike. NO MORE RJ PUKES FLYING MAINLINE ROUTES IN 70 SEAT ERJS AND CRJS for pennies on the dollar. Burn this POS down if they try to make a run at giving our flying away to the teenagers. I'm optimistic right now though that the MEC's know this. We will se in about 9 weeks perhaps. For now both chambers are loaded with ammo but the safety is stil on.

 

[bearcat]

Everything I've been hearing is that this "is just a transition agreement" and doesn't have any financial component.

I take it you are referring that this TATA does have some pay issues addressed?

Hmmmmm. I doubt it, but hmmmmmmm.....

And I might be missing something, but I'm not sure about the source saying we need a 20% bump to equal CAL's rates?? 12yr Bus F/O at UA $94, CAL $102. 777 $130 UA, $134 CAL.

Much less than the 20%/6-7% numbers in the rumor.

Funny. I'm a 6 year FO at 105