U.S. Airways Pilots acting tough

[PSL]

Drivers:

If you believe that 'driving a sophisticated machine' encompasses what an airline pilot is, you have a sarcastic wit that exceeds anything I have ever seen or are terribly ignorant.

Would you describe the following occupations as:

1) Appellate Judge: Attorney's referee
2) Surgeon: Anatomy mechanic
3) Psychiatrist: Legalized dispenser of mind altering drugs
4) etc....

You need to educate yourself about what we do in the FAR121/135 and Corporate FAR91 world before you make such obviously uninformed statements.

I suggest you speak with any captain and first officer and ask them if they are not specifically charged with operating safely, timely and efficiently (in that order). This sounds like responsibilities that far exceed an simple machine operator.

Do you think the qualities that make people VPs or Flight, DOs and Chief Pilots magically appear when they enter the position? Most of the people occupying those positions have educations and abilities that exceed many non-line management personnel.

Most line pilots do this because we enjoy it, not because we can't do anything else.

The job is far more than you make it out to be. Anyone else want to chime in on this one ? I'm done ...

 

[LAXSaabdude]

Re: Drivers

Believe it or not, I read your post again, and actually found something I could agree with.

You are not asked to be responsible for generation of revenue, keeping costs in line, or generating the profits.

Absolutely correct. Since U's wonderful "leadership" got them into this mess, let them be responsible for getting them out. Leave the pilots, and their paychecks out of it.

Thanks for the insight.

LAXSaabdude.

 

[mar]

Good posts PSL and LAXSaabdude

Publishers I doubt your "respect" for the "profession and skills."

Even in my job (one of the more "hands-on" type) we pilots get accused by others in the company of "just sitting there and drinking coffee."

The company doesn't pay a pilot to just sit there and drink coffee.

They pay pilots for practically everything done outside of the cockpit.

There is a rare day when a skillful pilot saves a very expensive airplane and all of its revenue. On that day he deserves more than his hourly pay.

But for the most part we're paid to keep things moving, as PSL said, efficiently.

Just the simple act of requesting direct or beginning a decent as late as possible can save a company thousands of dollars.

And those are the *easy* things to do. There are other decisions that fall directly into the lap of every PIC that may *cost* the company money or that may *save* the company money.

Those decisions are what pilots are payed for--not to just sit there and do crosswords and monitor the computer.

And, now, I'm done. Anyone else?

 

[enigma]

I can't believe that you guys fell for Pubs trolling. Come on men, you've been around long enough to know that the Pub is anti-pilot. I read his post and started to hit reply, but realized that I wasn't going to accomplish anything more than upsetting myself, so I let it go. Now, if I could only do the same for PFT posts,

enigma

 

[CatYaaak]

Drivers:

I suggest you speak with any captain and first officer and ask them if they are not specifically charged with operating safely, timely and efficiently (in that order). This sounds like responsibilities that far exceed an simple machine operator.

These are the very same (let alone "far exceeding") responsibilities as, say, an OTR trucker, backhoe operator, or school bus driver, and in the very same order. If it seems to you that piloting commercial aircraft is somehow unique in the charge to operate "safely, timely, and efficiently", then that's just your own erroneous and somewhat self-aggrandizing perception of what others do.

Do you think the qualities that make people VPs or Flight, DOs and Chief Pilots magically appear when they enter the position? Most of the people occupying those positions have educations and abilities that exceed many non-line management personnel.

And many rampers have abilities and educations that exceed many line pilots, and many of your above examples get to be CPs and such because of their ablity to brownose and bring out their kneepads at a the proper time. But your statement is a ridiculous, non-proveable one anyway. "Abilities" to do what? and educations..in what? More importantly....experience, in what? Are you implying that you could just plunk down any of these career-spent-flying pilots into mid-or-upper level non-flying-related mngmt positions and they would be up to the task in any large corporation? Many pilots fool themselves into thinking this. Say, how is KIWI Airlines these days anyway?

Most line pilots do this because we enjoy it, not because we can't do anything else.

That's certainly not unique, because most people can "do something else" (and most certainly can claim they can). I, for instance, could be a Marine Corps sniper, and lots of those in management could choose to fly. But in this professional-world context it's irrelavent what anyone THINKS or claims they can do...the only thing that matters is what you've chosen to do and what you've done. Sure, you can voice your opinion anytime, but sitting off to the side and telling someone else how they should do their job when you've never done or even attempted it yourself amounts to nothing more than useless noise and experience-less chatter from The Peanut Gallery.

The job is far more than you make it out to be. Anyone else want to chime in on this one ? I'm done ...

Flying ain't rocket surgery.

 

[PSL]

CatYaaak:

If you believe that driving OTR, a backhoe, school bus driver or other such referenced position mandates the same level of technical competence and ability, then I will waive the white flag.

I take it that you don't share my awe of surgeons, physicians, judges or as you state, rocket surgeons. I'm curious what you do hold in high regard?

Next reply ...

It's been my experience that my CPs, DOs, et al did not reach those positions by knee service. If that's what you have experienced, I'm sorry you career has been dominated by the 'tail end people' of the Bell Curve of ability and talent.

To be fair, every management staff is populated by some members of the 'Peter Principle', but I've yet to see too many of them at my airline. Obviously you have seen more than I have.

But, for the sake of making the argument as devoid of emotion as possible...

Take the largest sample of each work group you want (pilots, ramp workers, others) and tell me that education and cognitive ability are not determinant of one’s lot in life and you will have my eternal deference. You will have nullified my observations over 20 years in this business.

Or, if you want to look at our disagreement from a marketing or econometric vantage point, what value does the market place assign to a pilot v the other professions in question? I don’t know too many people who are pilots that aspire to become bus drivers, OTR, ramp workers, but I know a great many of the second group who aspire to the first.

Tell me, can the market place be wrong? Should airlines go first to the ramp workers, the OTR industry and hang out a help wanted sign for airline pilots? If what you say is true (for the most part) one’s position doesn’t highly correlate to one’s abilities.

This is not personally denigrating, it’s micro-economics at its essence.

As far as your Kiwi example.... I'm not sure what your point is other than it was an attempt by pilots and management to run an airline? They failed for a multitude of reasons, but to simply equate their failure to the fact that they were pilots first is not equitable. While you are checking your history, why not look at who was running Legend in Dallas...

Success or failure in this business is largely determined by capitalization successes and market opportunities, none of which is under the control of 'capable line managers'. Before you go off on me, note I did not say 'strategic managers'.

Next...

Thank you for validating my claim that many pilots can do something else. Good luck with your Marine Corps sniper opportunity, I'm sure we all would be grateful if you could add Osama to your 'book' if you get the chance.

I do agree with you in so far as your choice in professions is what matters, not your choices. But you missed my point entirely. My point was to illustrate that like so many high-functioning individuals; pilots have choices and as such are not simply 'sophisticated machine operators'.

It’s obvious we agree on little, but you do make me think.

Thanks

 

[Dave Siegel]

Siegel has said that he needs the CASM to come down from 10 cents to 6 cents. A while back the pilots figured that if they worked for free it only brought the CASM down by less than 2 cents. Not sure of the figures these days but coming after labor for the cost savings time after time isn't going to work. Management needs to INCREASE REVENUE.

Typhoonpilot

Hi everyone, it's Dave.

Like Mr. Bronner said, I've preserved almost 30,000 jobs since 2002. If the pilots could just work for free, CASM would be lowered significantly. Do you really think I have the time, energy, or motivation to worry about increasing revenue? I have a book deal that I'm working on! By the way, I'm assuming all of you will buy a copy.

Well, that wraps up things for now. I'll talk to you again next week.

 

[SWA_Proud]

PurpleTail, SWA's pay is better than your narrow body pay per hour. How many hours a month do you fly? I work 12, yes work 12 days, and fly 80 hours this month. $179/hour...you do the math!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am glad the pilots did what they did. It is about time someone stepped up and drew a hard line in the sand. Stand unity stand strong.

What has happened to a once noble and honorable profession?? Instead of DAL, AA, UAL and other backing up to what the LLC are paying their pilots why doesn't JetBlue or SWA grow some kahoonas and demand better pay?? I know JetBlue is a little more than a startup now but what is SWA's excuse?? We are becoming nothing more than glorified truck drivers.

FredEx PurpleTail,

Don't look at straight hourly rate. You gotta look at W-2s. In addition, compare a SWA pilots total career income to a DAL, NWA, UAL, USAIR pilot. Don't forget to include the zero annual income when the legacy boys were on furlough.

Then there is Quality of Life. Your AOC can look like Dawn of the Dead, but that is another thread....

It's all good, just look at the big picture, his picture, your picture and mine.....

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Re: Drivers

While I respect the profession and the skills, what you call a glorified driver is exactly what you are. You are paid to drive a sophisticated machine from point to point. You are not asked to be responsible for generation of revenue, keeping costs in line, or generating the profits.

Oh, really? The last time I checked, my job consisted of "driving" a multi-million dollar aircraft at around 500MPH several miles above the surface of the earth in a volatile and very unpredictable environment. I "drive" my airplane no matter the weather is doing (sorry, no fair weather only flying here). I operate my machine in some of the busiest airspace in the entire world. If I make the wrong move, it could mean the deaths of dozens of people and a financial blow that could completely criple my company. I work long hours, often on the backside of the clock and have to adapt easily to working with a multitude of different personalities. I have sacrificed financially and personally in order to stay on a disciplined track that will enable me to reach my career goals.

I am an airline pilot; that is what I do. Do I deserve to be well compensated for the job I do? You bet your ass. Take your oversimplification of my job and your drivel about "generation of revenue" and "keeping costs in line" and stick it where the sunshine doesn't shine, pal. I am part of an honorable and noble profession and will not allow you and people like you make me believe that I need to make a penny less than I do.

KAK

 

[PurpleTail]

Yeah, what he said!

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Re: Re: Drivers

Oh, really? The last time I checked, my job consisted of "driving" a multi-million dollar aircraft at around 500MPH several miles above the surface of the earth in a volatile and very unpredictable environment. I "drive" my airplane no matter the weather is doing (sorry, no fair weather only flying here). I operate my machine in some of the busiest airspace in the entire world. If I make the wrong move, it could mean the deaths of dozens of people and a financial blow that could completely criple my company. I work long hours, often on the backside of the clock and have to adapt easily to working with a multitude of different personalities. I have sacrificed financially and personally in order to stay on a disciplined track that will enable me to reach my career goals.

I am an airline pilot; that is what I do. Do I deserve to be well compensated for the job I do? You bet your ass. Take your oversimplification of my job and your drivel about "generation of revenue" and "keeping costs in line" and stick it where the sunshine doesn't shine, pal. I am part of an honorable and noble profession and will not allow you and people like you make me believe that I need to make a penny less than I do.

KAK

Vent....venting...vented

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Yeah, pretty much Something about that post really rubbed me the wrong way after spending the day working in the yard in the hot Southern sun.

KAK