Typo error in 135.225??

flystoomuch

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A pilot that used to work for me sent me this interpretation of 135.225:

135.225c is the reg that tells us 135 guys we have to go missed if outside the FAF and wx goes below mins.

Right ?..........

Well I guess we're all so busy tryin to understand the reg, that we don't notice that it only applies to Eligible On Demand Operators doing an approach to an airport without weather reporting.

135.225c - " ....if a pilot...UNDER PARAGRAPH B..."

135.225b - " A pilot conducting an EODO operation may begin an approch to an airport without weather reporting...."

So the only reg for normal 135 ops is 135.225a -- "....may not BEGIN an approach.......", unless you have asos and it's at mins.
SO I SAY IAF INBOUND OR RADAR VECTORS TO FINAL YOU CAN GO TAKE A LOOK EVEN IF WX GOES DOWN


So here is my answer to him:
I think it is definitely a typo and here’s why.

§ 135.225 IFR: Takeoff, approach and landing minimums.
(a) Except to the extent permitted by paragraph (b) of this section, no pilot may begin an instrument approach procedure to an airport unless—
(1) That airport has a weather reporting facility operated by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by U.S. National Weather Service, or a source approved by the Administrator; and
(2) The latest weather report issued by that weather reporting facility indicates that weather conditions are at or above the authorized IFR landing minimums for that airport.

(b) A pilot conducting an eligible on-demand operation may begin an instrument approach procedure to an airport that does not have a weather reporting facility operated by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by the U.S. National Weather Service, or a source approved by the Administrator if—…
(1) The alternate airport has a weather reporting facility operated by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by the U.S. National Weather Service, or a source approved by the Administrator; and
(2) The latest weather report issued by the weather reporting facility includes a current local altimeter setting for the destination airport. (It doesn’t specify that it needs anything BUT a current local altimeter setting) If no local altimeter setting for the destination airport is available, the pilot may use the current altimeter setting provided by the facility designated on the approach chart for the destination airport.

(c) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach to an airport under paragraph (b) of this section, and the pilot receives a later weather report indicating that conditions have worsened to below the minimum requirements…

Airports under paragraph (b) refers to airports that don’t have an approved weather reporting facility. The only requirement is a current altimeter setting. Altimeter settings have nothing to do with minimums. How would the pilot know that the weather has gone below minimums if there effectively is no weather reporting other than an altimeter setting? In other words the statement makes no legal sense.

I believe (c) SHOULD read:
(c) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach to an airport under paragraph (a) of this section, and the pilot receives a later weather report indicating that conditions have worsened to below the minimum requirements…

Now THAT statement makes sense and I believe that’s how it used to read before this EODO crap started.

Looking forward to any thoughts you smart folk out there might have!

Thanks
 

b350capt

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The problem with that interpretation is that the weather reporting required for 135.225(b) is for the alternate airport, not the destination airport. The reg is clarifying that not only do you need authorized weather at the alternate airport, but you ALSO need a source of local altimeter setting for the destination airport (which may or may not come from the alternate). The alternate airport may be in a geographically different spot, many miles away and not have the same barometric pressure as the destination airport. It is in no way saying that the only requirement for the alternate airport's weather is an altimeter setting.

In the case of an alternate not having a local altimeter setting for the destination, then you would have to use the altimeter setting from the airport specified on the approach plate (which may not be your alternate airport). In this situation you have three airports to consider....destination, alternate, and altimeter reading.

The reg is properly written as is for EOD operations. If the alternate airport has an altimeter setting for the destination airport, and is specified as the WX facility on the approach plate and a pilot receives a report that WX has gone below minimums prior to reaching the final approach segment (as defined in the 135.225) then an approach may not be attempted or a missed approach must be executed (as applicable). However, if WX is received from the alternate AFTER passing the F.A.S then the approach may be continued (given the other conditions of .225 are met).
 

Freightdog99

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I agree with what flystoomuch said. I asked our POI about this just the other day because some of our pilots were asking about it. He basically said that if you are inside the Final Approach Fix, or established inbound on a procedure without a FAF, and you find out the weather has gone below minimums that you can continue to minimums and upon arrival if you have the required visual references insight you may continue and land.

I think some lawyer screwed up the reg when it was last changed and should read how it is illustrated above, that’s how we interpret it anyway.
 

flystoomuch

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Avbug?

Where’s Avbug when you need him?

Hey Avbug, do you have an opinion on this?
 

MauleSkinner

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I say, keep reading...one doesn't "begin" the final approach segment after having begun the final approach segment, IMO. I'd say (c) is relates to (a) and (d) relates to (b), since it's less specific about "minimum" weather requirements that aren't really applicable to (b).
(d) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach to an airport under paragraph (c) of this section and a later weather report indicating below minimum conditions is received after the aircraft is—
(1) On an ILS final approach and has passed the final approach fix; or
(2) On an ASR or PAR final approach and has been turned over to the final approach controller; or
(3) On a final approach using a VOR, NDB, or comparable approach procedure; and the aircraft—
(i) Has passed the appropriate facility or final approach fix; or
(ii) Where a final approach fix is not specified, has completed the procedure turn and is established inbound toward the airport on the final approach course within the distance prescribed in the procedure; the approach may be continued and a landing made if the pilot finds, upon reaching the authorized MDA or DH, that actual weather conditions are at least equal to the minimums prescribed for the procedure.
 

avbug

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There is no typographical error. The regulation is correct.

135.225(a) specifically states that the approach cannot be started if the weather is below approach minimums. Period. End of story. Unless you're an eligible on-demand operator, then subparagraphs (b), (c) and (d) don't apply.

Subparagraph (c) and (d) only applies if you're an eligible on-demand operator, conducting an approach to an airport which does not have a weather reporting facility. It is an appendage, or expansion on paragraph (b)

Formerly, the wording of Paragraph (C) did apply to paragraph A. However, when the concept of eligible on-demand operators was introduced a few years ago, this was changed.

What this means presently is that if you are not an eligible on-demand operator as defined in 135.4, then your guidance on approach minimums is found in 135.225(a).

If you are an eligible on-demand operator, then your guidance on approach minimums is found in 135.225(b), (c) and (d).

Presently Netjets is petitioning the FAA for an exemption to the regulation, seeking to fly their enhanced flight vision systems on approaches when reported below minimums...but that's what will be required under the present regulation: an exemption (or for the regualtion to be changed).

that’s how we interpret it anyway.
The problem is that neither you, nor your POI, are authorized to interpret the regulation. The FAA chief and regional legal counsel is authorized to interpret the regulation. Not you. Not your POI.

Accordingly, what does the regulation say? It says you can't begin an approach if the reported weather is below minimums. End of story. There is no more.

You're beholden to Part 91, of course. Part 135 adds to Part 91, but it doesn't replace it, except in cases where expressive permission is granted, or additional restrictions apply. In this case, neither are present, and 91.175 also applies.

Now...it used to be the case that one couldn't begin the approach unless the latest weather report indicated above minimums, but that one could continue the approach if past the FAF (etc) and the weather dropped down. That language was taken away from standard 135 approach minimums, several years ago...leaving the paragraph as it stands now: 135.225(a). You can't begin the approach unless reported weather is above minimums. Once you've started the approach, you're still beholden to 91.175.

You're also beholden to 91.13, Careless or Reckless Operation. This is a standard used in nearly all FAA enforcement action, and it's a very flexible standard, meaning it can easily be applied to you. If you start an approach because the weather was on the ragged edge of minimums and continue it when the weather quickly drops below...and place yourself in a position of jeopardy, you might think you're legal under 135.225(a)...but you're still liable under the regulation per 91.13. Always.

I asked our POI about this just the other day because some of our pilots were asking about it. He basically said that if you are inside the Final Approach Fix, or established inbound on a procedure without a FAF, and you find out the weather has gone below minimums that you can continue to minimums and upon arrival if you have the required visual references insight you may continue and land.
In substance he's correct, except that the former references to the FAF or being established in cases without the FAF, has been removed. In other words, your POI is going off what he once knew to be true...but the regulation has been changed. Take away the language involving the FAF and established, and he's correct. The regulation states that one cannot begin the procedure unless the weather is reported at or above minimums. That's all it says.

You may have additional restrictions provided to your specific operation under your operations specifications so far as minimums (eg, OpSpec C074), in addition to 14 CFR (the "FAR's").

The changes we're talking about were made several years ago during some fundamental reconstruction of other parts of the regulation, which included the introduction of Eligible On-Demand operators, the introduction of Part 91 subpart K, and some heated industry discussion about competitive restrictions that separated fractional and private operators from charter 135 operators. Certain concessions and restrictions were made on both sides of the fence in the regulation to "balance the playing field," and this was one of them. Other example that some may remember include the 60% landing distance rule.

The regulation in it's current form gives you a little more lattitude than it used to, but it comes with a catch, and that is that the lattitude granted is desceptive. Yes, you don't have the "gotchas" of the former regulation which invoke the FAF and being established in lieu thereof, but you do still have 91.13 hanging over you...and it's applied liberally where a means is needed (or wanted) by which to hang a pilot. Beware.

I say, keep reading...one doesn't "begin" the final approach segment after having begun the final approach segment, IMO. I'd say (c) is relates to (a) and (d) relates to (b), since it's less specific about "minimum" weather requirements that aren't really applicable to (b).
Read the language of the regulation. 135.225(a) applies to everyone except those to whom 135.225(b) applies.

135.225(b) applies to eligible on-demand operators.

135.225(c) applies to operations conducted under 135.225(b)...it applies to eligible on-demand operators.

135.225(d) applies to operations conducted under 135.225(c) which applies to operations conducted under 135.225(b)...it applies to eligible on-demand operators. The language of construction in the regulation is clear on this:

§ 135.225 IFR: Takeoff, approach and landing minimums.

(b) A pilot conducting an eligible on-demand operation may begin...

(c) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach to an airport under paragraph (b) of this section,...

(d) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach to an airport under paragraph (c) of this section...
(d) applies to (c) applies to (b), and it's 135.225(b) which establishes that subparagraphs (b), (c), and (d) are the subject of eligible on-demand operations.

Having covered the above material, as an aside, one is far better off adhering to the practices prescribed in paragraphs (c) and (d) than attempting to take carte blanche authority to continue an approach if it's gone below minimums. That is, whereas 135.225(a) only restricts you in beginning the approach, your safe practice would best include the more conservative method of discontinuing the approach if weather goes below...no matter where you are. In real time, when you're on the approach, however, the regulation leaves this to your judgement.
 
Last edited:

MauleSkinner

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135.225(b) applies to eligible on-demand operators.

135.225(c) applies to operations conducted under 135.225(b)...it applies to eligible on-demand operators.

135.225(d) applies to operations conducted under 135.225(c) which applies to operations conducted under 135.225(b)...it applies to eligible on-demand operators. The language of construction in the regulation is clear on this:



(d) applies to (c) applies to (b), and it's 135.225(b) which establishes that subparagraphs (b), (c), and (d) are the subject of eligible on-demand operations.

Having covered the above material, as an aside, one is far better off adhering to the practices prescribed in paragraphs (c) and (d) than attempting to take carte blanche authority to continue an approach if it's gone below minimums. That is, whereas 135.225(a) only restricts you in beginning the approach, your safe practice would best include the more conservative method of discontinuing the approach if weather goes below...no matter where you are. In real time, when you're on the approach, however, the regulation leaves this to your judgement.
OK...so let's say I'm an EOD operator.

I initiate an ILS under paragraph (b). I pass the FAF. I receive a weather report indicating that conditions have worsened below minimum requirements, but since I'm past the FAF, I can continue per (c)(1)(i).

How does (d) enter into this?
 

flystoomuch

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Appreciation

Thanks again Avbug for taking the time to explain one more poorly understood regulation in a concise a credible way.

You truly are an incredible asset to the aviation community and a class act.
 
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