Type rating...logging time?

[CaptO'Brien]

Hi, I am wondering if somone can clarify this for me.

At the regionals when you get hired to fly a CRJ-200 for example they pay to type rate you on the aircraft right?

If the answer to the above question was yes, you are able to log the time as multi engine/turbine/co-pilot correct?

The reason i am confused was because somebody told me that you dont get type rated on the aircraft therefore you cant log the time if you are sitting right seat.....i thought since it requires two crew you must be type rated and also are entitled to log co-pilot time....which is also how you can reach the airlines upgrade minimums by using this time along wiht the time you started at teh regional with.

If you can clarify this for me i would be thankful!

CaptO'B

 

[makersmarc]

You log time as SIC

If you have a PIC type in the aircraft the FAA considers the time you log as PIC time, though I wouldn't be trying to sell this to any prospective employer.

At least one airline application asks for how much PIC time you have when you've been the one to sign for the aircraft.

 

[tomcat]

If you are serving as a required crewmember (and appropriately trained) in the right seat, yes it is SIC time. The SIC type-rating was only added recently to appease ICAO rules (I believe).

 

[Baronman]

All regionals I know of give the FO's a SIC type rating (for ICAO). So you log SIC time.

Even for those that have type ratings and are acting as FO, it would be a bad idea to log PIC time. If you're so interested in time logging it's probably because you're looking to move on to another job. Well, when you interview for that future job, you probably don't want to explain why you were logging PIC even though you never upgraded to Captain.

Being typed in a plane and flying it and being the Captain are two different things.

 

[Weasil]

Hi, I am wondering if somone can clarify this for me.

At the regionals when you get hired to fly a CRJ-200 for example they pay to type rate you on the aircraft right?

NO (not until upgrade - the SIC type is purely a paperwork exercise).

If the answer to the above question was yes, you are able to log the time as multi engine/turbine/co-pilot correct?

The reason i am confused was because somebody told me that you dont get type rated on the aircraft therefore you cant log the time if you are sitting right seat.....i thought since it requires two crew you must be type rated and also are entitled to log co-pilot time....which is also how you can reach the airlines upgrade minimums by using this time along wiht the time you started at teh regional with.

Sounds like the somebody told you the wrong thing, or you misunderstood what they were saying. You CAN log time in the right seat, just not PIC time as previous posts stated.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I can't believe we still see these threads...

Did you sign for the airplane? You did? Great! You can log PIC.

Oh wait, you didn't sign for the airplane? No, you can't log PIC. End of story.

 

[J32driver]

I can't believe we still see these threads...

Did you sign for the airplane? You did? Great! You can log PIC.

Oh wait, you didn't sign for the airplane? No, you can't log PIC. End of story.

BBWWAAHHAAAAA!!! GGRRRRRRR.....SICK 'EM BOY!!!!!



Hey bud, 'bout 60 hours to go!!!!!

 

[OPECJet]

I can't believe we still see these threads...

Did you sign for the airplane? You did? Great! You can log PIC.

Oh wait, you didn't sign for the airplane? No, you can't log PIC. End of story.

A bit disgruntled?

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

A bit disgruntled?

You know where I work!

Sorry if that come across a bit crass. Hope no one got there panties in a bundle.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

BBWWAAHHAAAAA!!! GGRRRRRRR.....SICK 'EM BOY!!!!!



Hey bud, 'bout 60 hours to go!!!!!

Enjoy it... Get drunk. This sixty hours is the last that you will get to enjoy responsibility free sleep for a long time!

 

[CaptO'Brien]

Ok so thats what i thought....SIC rating makes it possible to log SIC time which will count towards a higher license (ATP).

 

[bizzum]

Ok so thats what i thought....SIC rating makes it possible to log SIC time which will count towards a higher license (ATP).

You don't even need the SIC type to log time. You just have to be trained to perform the duties of SIC in that aircraft. The SIC type is only a requirement of the ICAO to fly internationally. In fact, I do not believe some airlines like Colgan even give the SIC type.

 

[AV80R]

If you have a PIC type in the aircraft the FAA considers the time you log as PIC time, though I wouldn't be trying to sell this to any prospective employer.

Not unless your name is on the release - there is only one captain assigned to each flight regardless of the fo having a pic type or not.

Think about it - if pic type rating is all you need in order to log pic time, then all furloughed pilots get to log pic time whenever they fly as a copilot at their new company if they happen to be typed on that aircraft...So in effect there would be two captains on that aircraft right? Yeah, didn't think so...

 

[makersmarc]

If you have a PIC type in the aircraft the FAA considers the time you log as PIC time, though I wouldn't be trying to sell this to any prospective employer.

Not unless your name is on the release - there is only one captain assigned to each flight regardless of the fo having a pic type or not.

Think about it - if pic type rating is all you need in order to log pic time, then all furloughed pilots get to log pic time whenever they fly as a copilot at their new company if they happen to be typed on that aircraft...So in effect there would be two captains on that aircraft right? Yeah, didn't think so...

I definitely agree, although you have to look at who is looking at the logbook: a prospective employer or the FAA. If you ask the FAA if an FO [with a PIC type] who is the sole manipulater of the controls can log PIC time, they'll say "Sure thing, Johnny." If you ask Southwest Airlines, well, here it is from their careers page:
" Flight Experience:
2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in command3, as defined below is required.
3Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" for the purposes of application for employment as the Pilot ultimately responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. The Pilot in Command should also be the Pilot who signed for the aircraft and who is the ultimate authority for the operation of that flight. "

They clarified this because apparently there is some confusion concerning the definition of PIC time that they (and virtually all other) airlines observe.

Right now I can see the wheels turning, all the jailhouse lawyer/FO's paying to get their PIC types so they can get their 1000 hours and get the hell out of Dodge. I don't think so....

 

[AvroGuy]

you just need to look at FAR Pat 1, PIC definition.

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight company does this; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

 

[CaptO'Brien]

So if you were trained or had a SIC rating and were logging SIC time while in the right seat would this time be legit in other countries? I'm interested because i am planning on working in other countries and don't want them to question the time i have built. Thanks again.

 

[bizzum]

So if you were trained or had a SIC rating and were logging SIC time while in the right seat would this time be legit in other countries? I'm interested because i am planning on working in other countries and don't want them to question the time i have built. Thanks again.

The SIC "type" is worth nothing more than the ink it is is printed with on your certificate. The whole concept for ICAO I believe was so that if ever ramp checked in a foreign country, they could see you were actually trained to be an SIC in that make and model of aircraft. You can log SIC time with or without one as long as you are trained to perform the duties of SIC by your company. This time is legit everywhere.

 

[CJCCapt]

The regulations are very clear on this (14 CFR Part 1.1, Part 61.51(c) and (e)). You may as a commercial, instrument, multiengine rated pilot with an SIC type rating, if you so desire and still need "PIC time" for the purpose of meeting the time required for an ATP certificate, log for that purpose "sole manipulator" PIC time. This not PIC time as defined in Part 1.1 - "...the person who has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight...".

Once you obtain an ATP, under the regulation, you may no longer, with any group of certificates and ratings, log PIC time of any type without being designated (and qualified under the regulations you are operating under) as captain - Part 1.1 Pilot-in-command.

Part 61.51 "sole manipulator" pic time and Part 1.1 PIC time are two very different things. The only PIC time most part 121 airlines care about is the Part 1.1 type. In fact they design their applications to remove all the sole manipulator pic time from discussion.

 

[AV80R]

So if you were trained or had a SIC rating and were logging SIC time while in the right seat would this time be legit in other countries? I'm interested because i am planning on working in other countries and don't want them to question the time i have built. Thanks again.

Most other countries are actually more restrictive than the US when it comes to logging pic time. For example, it is very common at Flight option, or Netjets for both pilots to be logging PIC time (heck, I am typed and a sole manipulator of controls, right?)

Most airlines in the US frown upon this; my friend interviewed at UPS and the majority of the questions he got was how he logged his pic time at Flight Options, he felt they were very suspicious that both pilots would log pic time even though he said they did not. He did not get the job even though I know others from there did.

Another friend of mine lives in Sweden and flies for NetJets Europe; he is PIC typed but flies as an FO. Each time he gets a flight time printout from his company, his time is logged as sic, not pic even though he is typed on the aircraft.

SIC “type” has been around in Europe and other countries for ever, US was supposed to get it as well but year after year we were getting an exemption from it. A standard ICAO practice as many countries get waivers for different things. For example, right now we have a waiver to use inches of mercury when reporting altimeter setting (you know 29.92 vs. 1013). Russia and China have a waiver to use meters for altitude instead of feet. Anyways, our exemption was not extended and as a result every copilot in the US got an SIC type during their next training event.

I know a person in Denmark who got an SIC type in a Duchess; over there it’s more about commercial operation than the type/weight of the aircraft. Anyways, if you have an SIC type think of it as an aircraft checkout and not a true type rating. The SIC time is legit of course because that IS what you fly...The only reason this subject is so contentious is because of the practice at some airlines for both pilots to log PIC time if both of them have PIC type. The FAA does not care and that's why many pilots who just got an SIC type are trying to find a loophole so they can log some PIC time as well. Well no, you may not because #1 you do not have the PIC type and #2 you were not signed on the aircraft as the PIC - there can only be one.

 

[AvroGuy]

The regulations are very clear on this (14 CFR Part 1.1, Part 61.51(c) and (e)). You may as a commercial, instrument, multiengine rated pilot with an SIC type rating, if you so desire and still need "PIC time" for the purpose of meeting the time required for an ATP certificate, log for that purpose "sole manipulator" PIC time. This not PIC time as defined in Part 1.1 - "...the person who has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight...".

Better look at it again. IMO

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

A person with a SIC type is not rated nor has privileges to act as PIC because they don't have a full type rating. by full i mean they most likely didn't complete all required manuvers for the type rating.

Now a person with a full type, that can get real sticky. Better to error on the side of conservativism on this one and not log PIC unless you are occupying the left seat and your company recognises you as a PIC.