TWA Lawsuit

[FLYLOW22]

You bitter TWA guys kill me. For starters, the guys who really screwed you were the APA, but not a hint of criticism is leveled at them. I remember when the TWA acquisition was first announced, and a couple of AA buddies told me point blank "we're gonna staple the whole lot of them."

But ALPA is the bad guy.

Then, a while after the screw-job was officially implemented (I agree you guys got hosed, but there seems to be multiple parties to that sad end result) I was on a hotel van with an AA-but-former-TWA crew. I asked one of the F/As if the pilots got hosed as bad as it seemed (her husband was a pilot). Her answer was "Yes, but my husband was former Ozark, and all that American pilots did was the exact same thing that TWA guys did to the Ozark pilots, so what comes around goes around."

Is that all correct?

Oh, I am sure that APA and AMR are next on the list.

 

[STL717]

You bitter TWA guys kill me. For starters, the guys who really screwed you were the APA, but not a hint of criticism is leveled at them. Oh.... let me help.... APA Sucks and they don't fly airplanes too well either.


I remember when the TWA acquisition was first announced, and a couple of AA buddies told me point blank "we're gonna staple the whole lot of them."

But ALPA is the bad guy.

Then, a while after the screw-job was officially implemented (I agree you guys got hosed, but there seems to be multiple parties to that sad end result) I was on a hotel van with an AA-but-former-TWA crew. I asked one of the F/As if the pilots got hosed as bad as it seemed (her husband was a pilot). Her answer was "Yes, but my husband was former Ozark, and all that American pilots did was the exact same thing that TWA guys did to the Ozark pilots, so what comes around goes around."

Is that all correct?

You are totally wrong. The TWA pilots would have gladly signed the exact same agreement as the Ozark pilots received. It was even offered by APA but as soon as the TWA pilots readily agreed to the same integration APA backed down....

So much for for your version......

 

[ironspud]

You are totally wrong. The TWA pilots would have gladly signed the exact same agreement as the Ozark pilots received. It was even offered by APA but as soon as the TWA pilots readily agreed to the same integration APA backed down....

So much for for your version......

He was just baiting. See what got hooked.

 

[Groucho]

Originally Posted by JohnQ
You bitter TWA guys kill me. For starters, the guys who really screwed you were the APA, but not a hint of criticism is leveled at them. I remember when the TWA acquisition was first announced, and a couple of AA buddies told me point blank "we're gonna staple the whole lot of them."


The problem with this statement is that at the time of the merger, when negotiations were underway, the Allied Pilots Association, didn't owe the TWA pilots the Duty of Fair Representation. The TWA pilots can only sue that entity which represented them at the time and that is ALPA.

 

[Kalifornia]

Originally Posted by JohnQ
You bitter TWA guys kill me. For starters, the guys who really screwed you were the APA, but not a hint of criticism is leveled at them. I remember when the TWA acquisition was first announced, and a couple of AA buddies told me point blank "we're gonna staple the whole lot of them."


The problem with this statement is that at the time of the merger, when negotiations were underway, the Allied Pilots Association, didn't owe the TWA pilots the Duty of Fair Representation. The TWA pilots can only sue that entity which represented them at the time and that is ALPA.

Still, they are as much to blame as anyone else. Who elected ALPA National at the time? All the ALPA carriers which include, you guessed it, the TWA MEC. So their decisions lead to claimed wrongs. Go after the specific individuals responsible back in the day, not well over half the current pilot population.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Reality check time:

First, I don't know the details of the ALPA side of the issue, but I'd have to observe that it really didn't matter if David Boies or Alan Dershowitz was on your side, the APA pilots controlled the list and any additions to it just like SWA has done. It seems to me like a bunch of 10 year old Pop Warner football kids upset that their crappy coach and lawyer wouldn't give them a chance to play the Green Bay Packers.

Second: "We're going to get Millions"
The former TWA now AA braniacs ought to think long and hard about shifting all of ALPA's focus into survival mode when they should be focused on getting UAL/CAL a good contract. You guys will collect far more at AA if ALPA improves life at CAL/UAL than an IOU from ALPA.

Third: "Actual Damages"
It was AMR/AA that destroyed TWA. Like it or not, the end decison was your airline was worth sh*t and has been 98% dismantled. What you think you should collect from empty space is beyond me.

Of course the main contention is the seniority list. I've hear alot of comments on this board and out on the line from guys outside AA that we really screwed the TWA guys. The reality is that from day one, the APA knew much of the TWA system was going to be dismantled just like was done with AirCal and Reno and with the loss of flying to Eagle. On day one, the TWA 10 year Captains flying 5 flights a day in a short radius from STL to places like DSM/OMA/BNA/MLI/PIA ect, ect basically said, "we should stay Captains with a relative merge" while the AA guys knew that flying was going to get wacked or shifted to Eagle/TransStates. That demand was never dropped.

The AA guys also knew that keeping these guys at Captain would lock out the Widebody slots in the future to young AA FO's. Anyone hired in the late 1980's 1990's knew the number of 21-23 year olds hired at TWA during that period. It wasn't going to happen. the "Caribbean Hub" was also going away. It was nothing but some cash flow poaching from AA by Icahn anyway. Riyadh and Cairo? What were the chances AA was keeping that flying? Again, the TWA side said, "So what, we should shift to AA flying". There were also claims that TWA brought a bunch of international route authority. Sounds great except it was 20 years too late and 95% of it went Open Skies.

In the end, APA figured AA would keep a smaller STL hub and structured the list for it. Basically, the TWA guys hired when it was a A-Scale good place to go to were protected in their left seats and continue to fly today. After TWA hit bottom, 1988-1989?, those hired went to the bottom. In that range it was a blunt, bloody ax and even I think maybe a couple hundred might have been feathered slightly better. In fact, had AMR kept any kind of a decent hub of 100-150 flights, the TWA FO's were planned to upgrade in their system quicker than the AA FO's due to the average age of the STL TWA Captains. It didn't happen, it sucks.

APA couldn't forsee 9/11 and even how far AMR would go dismantling STL. A simple STL bidsheet analysis over the last 8 years tells the real story. I haven't looked recently, but even years ago the average STL S80 bidsheet had about 10 hours of flying the old TWA system and 65 hours on long time AA routes like DFW-ELP/TUS ect. It's probably worse now. In turn, the AA guys flew little of the former TWA side. their might be a couple transcons left. At STL, virtually no native AA crews cycled through, far less than before the merger. The TWA Captains that lost their routes and moved into the AA system killed narrow body upgrades for years (AA of course killed the most). Where do I send for damages?

The stapled TWA FO's of course got furloughed along with many AA FO's. Given they were in one lump, I believe all STL TWA FO's hit the street and native AA FO's came in and of course flew the "TWA system". This does balance some of what I wrote above.

AMR has screwed us all with crappy management. Hopefully things can turn around.

That's my perspective, fire at will.

 

[charlie2]

Reality check time:


The AA guys also knew that keeping these guys at Captain would lock out the Widebody slots in the future to young AA FO's. Anyone hired in the late 1980's 1990's knew the number of 21-23 year olds hired at TWA during that period. It wasn't going to happen. the "Caribbean Hub" was also going away. It was nothing but some cash flow poaching from AA by Icahn anyway. Riyadh and Cairo? What were the chances AA was keeping that flying? Again, the TWA side said, "So what, we should shift to AA flying". There were also claims that TWA brought a bunch of international route authority. Sounds great except it was 20 years too late and 95% of it went Open Skies.

You think the AA pilots considered age? Interesting. They must have thought that since they are young they can recover as the older AA pilots retire. I agree with that.

 

[TWA Dude]

Reality check time:

Nice speech but completely irrelevant. ALPA had a duty to fairly represent the TWA pilots and it deliberately neglected to do so. If the courts don't punish it it will happen again.

As for the APA, no doubt they were protecting their own and had lots of justification for the integration they formulated. Any pilot group that screws-over another can come up with plenty of reasons for doing so (like the USAPA scumbags). That's why a law was passed (Bond-McCaskill) dictating that arbitration be used to settle the issue.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Nice speech but completely irrelevant. ALPA had a duty to fairly represent the TWA pilots and it deliberately neglected to do so. If the courts don't punish it it will happen again.

I don't know what they did. If they got crappy representation, welcome to the party. Ask your AA buddies how good representation is even when they try

As for the APA, no doubt they were protecting their own and had lots of justification for the integration they formulated. Any pilot group that screws-over another can come up with plenty of reasons for doing so (like the USAPA scumbags). That's why a law was passed (Bond-McCaskill) dictating that arbitration be used to settle the issue.

The law could be better describe as "Revenge of the Cat Ranchers". It was the FA's who got Bond aboard. I don't know the USAPA situation nor defend it. You guys keep throwing around the "we got screwed" card without one single admission of the problems faced on your side. From what I've seen, most of the biggest screechers are the guys who jumped into TWA somewhere post 1989. I heard over and over from these guys on the jumpseat and socially "I am going to be senior because of the future retirements" when asked why they were still there. Obviously, there were many with other reasons, bases, family, ect. A bunch of guys placed a big bet at the airline career craps table and lost. You're not the only one. I lost big $$$ on one too. It was my decison and my fault, the blame rests with me. Try that statement at the appeal or damages hearing.

The funny thing is that the AA guys who have the least tolerance for the "We got screwed chant" are the ones who left TWA and got hired at AA. Now them' guys use some salty language talking about what you guys wanted.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't know what they did. If they got crappy representation, welcome to the party.

You're not paying attention. "Crappy representation" doesn't even come close to describing what Woerth and his cronies did. "Crappy representation" doesn't win DFR trials.

The law could be better describe as "Revenge of the Cat Ranchers". It was the FA's who got Bond aboard.

So what? Do you disagree with RLA seniority disputes being sent to arbitration when the sides can't agree?

You guys keep throwing around the "we got screwed" card without one single admission of the problems faced on your side.

I know you're just baiting but I'm genuinely curious to know what the heck you're talking about.