Twa 800

[LJDRVR]

9 pages later..the only thing I'm certain of is that LJDRVR is a dick.

You may be right, Greg.

I just got back from a two-day and read this whole stinkin' thread over. It occurs to me my demeanor was a bit overzealous. Everybody should believe whatever they like here; I have no desire to change anybody's mind.

Please understand there are two issues with the TWA 800 threads that get me all riled up.

• There seems to be thread of belief that a CWT explosion just couldn't happen. However, I lost my lap-swimming buddy and good friend Rob Wienman in 1989 when the CWT on the KC-135 he was co-piloting exploded at 5000' No fuel, just vapor. Digging through the accident databases reveal CWT issues are nothing new for Boeing. I tend to take it a bit more personally than I should, but Boeing CWT's have been exploding since 1961.

• I distrust my government as much as the next person, but it always puzzles me when people look at an accident like TWA 800, read some expert opinions from some outside expert source that contradicts the conclusions of those that actually performed the investigation, and believe the theorists instead. The NTSB is an incredible organization filled with smart, driven people whose only desire is to get at the truth and prevent loss of life. As I posted earlier, they are warriors for the truth, and we are all well served by them. Being a Human/Factors and Safety Systems guy, I again, tend to take it more personally than I should when somebody suggests that people as fine as those that make up the NTSB, would lie, obfuscate and falsify their work for any reason at all. They simply could not. Of course at the end of the day, it is a probable cause,

Well, that's it in as small a nutshell as I can make it. My sincere apologies to anybody I harangued, offended or otherwise beat up. It sure is fun to have a pissin' and moanin' internet fight isn't it?

 

[Annie]

Dear LJDRVR:

Like you, I once loved an industry. I loved it soo much that I could not see when it was vulnerable.

I once believed that NO university accrediting body, would give approval to any academic program, that did not measure up to, or surpass, any curriculum that had established itself as successful. I WAS WRONG! The accrediting agencies that approve our university programs today, are just rubber stamps. I am sorry, but that is FACT. When I look at this situation, as it exists in academia, and I step over to the aviation industry--I wonder how the NTSB has survived the same period of time--untouched? Unruffled by the threats? EACH INVESTIGATOR UNTHREATENED?

 

[FN FAL]

No one doubts that, but by the end of line of 100 people, she is going to have the clap and her eyes would have been gouged out by aliens from Area 51 who were seen mutilating some cows.

don't forget about the black helicopters that were seen following her around that day.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

You may be right, Greg.

I just got back from a two-day and read this whole stinkin' thread over. It occurs to me my demeanor was a bit overzealous. Everybody should believe whatever they like here; I have no desire to change anybody's mind.

Please understand there are two issues with the TWA 800 threads that get me all riled up.

• There seems to be thread of belief that a CWT explosion just couldn't happen. However, I lost my lap-swimming buddy and good friend Rob Wienman in 1989 when the CWT on the KC-135 he was co-piloting exploded at 5000' No fuel, just vapor. Digging through the accident databases reveal CWT issues are nothing new for Boeing. I tend to take it a bit more personally than I should, but Boeing CWT's have been exploding since 1961.

• I distrust my government as much as the next person, but it always puzzles me when people look at an accident like TWA 800, read some expert opinions from some outside expert source that contradicts the conclusions of those that actually performed the investigation, and believe the theorists instead. The NTSB is an incredible organization filled with smart, driven people whose only desire is to get at the truth and prevent loss of life. As I posted earlier, they are warriors for the truth, and we are all well served by them. Being a Human/Factors and Safety Systems guy, I again, tend to take it more personally than I should when somebody suggests that people as fine as those that make up the NTSB, would lie, obfuscate and falsify their work for any reason at all. They simply could not. Of course at the end of the day, it is a probable cause,

Well, that's it in as small a nutshell as I can make it. My sincere apologies to anybody I harangued, offended or otherwise beat up. It sure is fun to have a pissin' and moanin' internet fight isn't it?

I do not doubt that the NTSB is made up of skilled professionals who want to find out the truth. However, they can only determine the "truth" based on the evidence that is made available to them. The bottom line is that evidence was held private by the FBI that could possibly have swayed the NTSB's conclusion on this, such as the shrapnels of metal found in the bodies of the victims. There is absolutely no reason for the FBI to withhold such evidence in a crash unless some sort of criminal activity was involved that they do not wish for the public or the NTSB to know about.

 

[414Flyer]

I do not doubt that the NTSB is made up of skilled professionals who want to find out the truth. However, they can only determine the "truth" based on the evidence that is made available to them. The bottom line is that evidence was held private by the FBI that could possibly have swayed the NTSB's conclusion on this, such as the shrapnels of metal found in the bodies of the victims.

So they did not have access to the remains of the 747 either?? Thats a bit hard to swallow.

 

[Ill Mitch]

don't forget about the black helicopters that were seen following her around that day.

I hate black helicopters...I said as much to the MIB the last time they came and talked to me.

 

[Crossky]

And during Katrina, there was a reefer full of dead babies with their throats slit and hundreds of women were getting raped every hour in the super dome. Even the police chief said it was true, but then he had to quit his job...because the NSA told him to keep quiet about it, because it was Bush's fault.

FN FAL, that's a POOR comparison, and you know it. I'll give you a few points for ridicule however.

 

[bart]

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

Well, what is it?

 

[Annie]

Are You Serious?

 

[FN FAL]

Well, what is it?

Nahhhhh, I think think what they were saying when they beat the hell out of D. Rather was, "WHAT? Is this freak seeing Ken?"

 

[Flightjock30]

You know...other missile reports besides "Pakistan 712" were also reported by 3-4 passenger jets in the vicinity of the New Jersey Coastline several years later (circa 1999). The controller tried saying "oh, they are probably being launched from the Aberdeen Proving Grounds." He clearly was wrong..if that were the case...then PHL, BWI, IAD, DCA, etc departures would have reported seeing these missiles too!

 

[EagleRJ]

You know...other missile reports besides "Pakistan 712" were also reported by 3-4 passenger jets in the vicinity of the New Jersey Coastline several years later (circa 1999).

Pakistan 712, November 16, 1996 Audio
Preceding TWA 884 (747 JFK-Tel Aviv). TWA 884 was also in the vicinity of TWA 800 on July 17, 1996

Northwest 775, March 17, 1997 Audio

Swissair 127, March 5, 1999 Audio


There are other reports- the ATC transcripts are posted on the twa800.com site.



Something else that's been puzzling- I've mentioned this before. Remember that calendar found in the Dutch mosque in 2001 that showed a plane crashing against the New York skyline? Link
It was published three months before 9/11/01, so a lot of people thought it showed prior knowledge of the attack on the WTC.

Two questions I have: why is the aircraft depicted a 747? Why is it shown on fire and crashing into the water? Maybe it was a commemoration instead of a premonition.

 

[profile]

Wow, a lot of posts by people that have never been near an investigation, never visited NTSB, never talked to any of the investigators, let alone were involved.

Get over it. TWA 800 happened the way NTSB said it did, which is unfortunate, as now FAA is pushing full tank inerting and similar wastes of money (compared to other things that have more "bang for the buck" in safety improvement).

 

[Flightjock30]

http://hometown.aol.com/missiletwa800/part2.htm <---- MORE Missile near misses!

http://www.twa800.com/news/hull.htm <---MORE missile near misses

To Profile and all other doubters,

It was just a matter of time before an aircraft was struck!

 

[LAZYB]

<fwd>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE ​

For additional information contact:

Attorney for Plaintiff
JOHN H. CLARKE, Esq.
Telephone: (202) 332-3030
Plaintiff
Capt. H. RAY LAHR
(310) 459 2232
Lisa Michelson remembers the moment she saw the CIA’s video animation depicting TWA Flight 800’s death throes and the seconds in which her son was dying aboard the Paris-bound jumbo jet in July 1996.
“I don’t understand aeronautics but when I saw the CIA film of the nose coming off and the plane climbing over 3,000 feet I wanted to vomit,” the West Hills, California mother said. “I thought, ‘How can they pull this off?’
“In my own naïve way I thought about a hunter shooting a bird and hi! tting it in the head and him going back to the lodge and telling his hunting buddies how he shot this bird and it started flying up, up, up. I wonder how many of his buddies would have believed that fable. I didn’t believe the CIA either. I’m not a scientist but I do know what does and doesn’t make sense.”
On Dec. 15, a Los Angeles Federal Court judge will hear arguments about how much evidence U.S. officials must reveal to support their claims that a decapitated Boeing 747 could soar thousands of feet after 80,000 pounds of nose and cockpit were blown off. The suit seeking the information comes six years after the FBI presented the CIA-produced animated hypothesis of Flight 800’s last seconds and the National Transportation Safety Board subsequently presented its own versions.
The issue is important because the FBI, using the CIA’s analysis, and the NTSB concluded that hundreds of ! witnesses did not see a missile streaking toward the TWA jumbo jet off New York’s coast on July 17, 1996. The agencies’ officials said that what the witnesses saw was flaming fuel from the crippled airliner as it soared upward after its nose was blown off by a hypothetical catastrophic series of mechanical mishaps.
The FBI announced that there was no evidence a bomb or missile struck TWA Flight 800 and caused the deaths of all 230 passengers and crew members aboard. FBI officials said that although scores of witnesses believed they had seen some upward-bound object hit the plane, the observers were deceived by the disintegrating plane’s death spiral upward.
That so-called “zoom climb” was impossible, retired United Airlines pilot and captain H. Ray Lahr of Malibu said. It’s his suit, filed under the Freedom of Information Act, that’s being heard in Los Angeles.
Lahr, a former aviation accident investigator and safety officer, filed the suit after the NTSB refused to give him the information and calculations it used for its own “zoom climb” analysis or the information and calculations the CIA used.
“I don't believe the zoom-climb ever happened,” Lahr said. “Boeing provided before-and-after data to the NTSB, and it was published in the accident report. Eighty thousand pounds of nose and cockpit were blown off. This shifted the center-of-gravity far aft and generated about 6,000,000 foot-pounds of nose-up torque. The aircraft immediately pitched up and stalled.
“The wing probably failed right then since its center box structure had been blown apart,” he continued. “But using Boeing's data, I calculated that even if the wing had held together, the most the plane could have climbed is a few hundred feet, ! not the 3,200 feet claimed by the CIA. That is why I want the data and calculations that were used to produce the CIA and NTSB videos.”
Lahr said he tried to get the information at the NTSB’s final public hearing about the Flight 800 crash but was cut off by NTSB director Dr. Bernard Loeb. Lahr said he then exchanged letters with NTSB Chairman Jim Hall but got no answers. Lahr then filed Freedom of Information Act requests with the CIA. The CIA said it used data and conclusions provided by the NTSB. The NTSB said it couldn’t release the information because it was proprietary to Boeing. A Boeing press release said it provided “basic aerodynamic information to assist in the CIA’s analysis of the airplane’s performance (but) we are not aware of the data that was used to develop the video.”
“My appeal of the NTSB decision was refused, so my only recourse was a lawsuit,” Lahr said. The retired pilot has an engineering degree from the University of Southern California. As a member of the Air Line Pilots Association Safety Committee, he investigated eight major accidents that involved large jet airliners or freighters. Two involved aircraft that crashed into deep ocean water, just as Flight 800 did.
Lahr said other pilots who were eyewitnesses to Flight 800’s crash and aloft at the time refute the zoom-climb hypothesis. Two have filed affidavits in support of Lahr’s suit.
Retired Air National Guard helicopter pilot Maj. Fred Meyer, a Vietnam War combat veteran and an attorney, said he saw a streak of light with a trajectory like a shooting star explode near the airliner. Based on his combat experience, he said, the light was an explosive projectile, “definitely” a military warhead. He and the rescue helicopter crew, w! hich happened to be on a nearby training mission, watched the fireball immediately plummet to the water as they raced to look for survivors. There was none.
Eastwind Airlines pilot David McClaine’s aerial view of the Flight 800 fireball made him the first person to transmit the message of the tragedy to authorities. He was piloting a Boeing 737 when he saw a light ahead of him in the sky explode into a ball of flames, divide into two large streamers, and immediately fall to the water. Had Flight 800 zoom climbed, it would have done so right through McClaine’s course.
Paul Beaver, a missile specialist for the British military publishing house Jane’s, said both accounts sounded like a missile striking the passenger jet.
Lahr’s is one of two TWA-related FOIA suits moving through Federal Court.

- cont.