Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

TSA is trying to sneak through a rule without public comment

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

Flydaplane

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Posts
232
The TSA is trying to sneak through a regulation in the federal register that will significantly hamper flight instructors and flight schools abilities to conduct business, including (if I read it correctly, a $130 fee for all students to pass a TSA background check). They put it in the federal register and it goes into effect in a couple of weeks. They then plan on a PR push to educate the flight schools and instructors. Standard procedure is to publish it and invite comment. TSA is trying to sneak it through without comment and then enforce it. AOPA is trying to get them to change it....it's time to speak up!

[font=ARIAL,HELVETICA]Boyer appeals directly to TSA chief to delay alien flight training rule[/font]

AOPA President Phil Boyer has gone straight to the top to stop implementation of the Transportation Security Administration's "alien" flight-training rule.

"In my almost three years of working with TSA, I have never seen such an impractical idea," Boyer told TSA chief Adm. David Stone Thursday morning. "I implore you to delay implementation of this rule to give us the opportunity to work with you to bring sanity to it and help you accomplish your security goals."

The phone call prompted an unscheduled meeting between AOPA Senior Vice President of Government and Technical Affairs Andy Cebula, AOPA General Counsel John Yodice, and senior TSA policy officials.

AOPA has already filed a formal petition to suspend the October compliance date for training in aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or less (see "AOPA petitions to suspend parts of TSA alien training rule"), while Yodice has submitted a five-page letter to TSA's chief counsel seeking clarification and explanations and justifications for the rule's specifics.

"Frankly, I don't believe that TSA understands the flight training industry for small general aviation aircraft, and particularly independent, freelance flight instructors," said Boyer. "What might work for training in aircraft over 12,500 pounds doesn't work for the majority of the GA fleet. One size doesn't fit all."

The rule directly affects more than 650,000 U.S.-certificated pilots, 85,000 resident aliens with U.S. pilot certificates, 93,700 flight students, 88,700 flight instructors, and some 3,400 flight schools.

As currently written, the rule requires every student and certificated pilot to prove his or her citizenship status prior to taking any kind of flight training, including flight reviews. Flight instructors are required to keep copies of pilots' personal information (which could include social security cards, birth certificates, or passports) for five years.

"Many pilots consider this an insult. Our members are incensed about the privacy aspects of this rule," said Boyer. "Many have told us that requiring flight instructors to maintain permanent files filled with personal pilot information is not only inappropriate, it would have a chilling effect on people seeking flight training.

In his conversation with Stone, Boyer explained that many flight instructors pass through the industry quickly as they move on to other flying jobs. These instructors don't have offices or the resources to securely maintain the kinds of files TSA is now demanding.

Boyer also pointed out that the majority of flight schools in the United States operate under Part 61, without the necessity for certification.

"Attempting to take what the Department of Justice did with the few Part 141 schools that were training foreign nationals in large aircraft and applying it across the board just will not work," said Boyer. (Currently the Department of Justice does security screening on foreigners who apply for training in the United States in aircraft weighing more than 12,500 pounds.)

TSA published its interim final rule "Flight Training for Aliens and Other Designated Individuals" September 20 without the usual public review and comment (see "AOPA raises concerns over TSA alien flight training rule"). TSA said it was responding to a congressional mandate to check for terrorists among foreign nationals applying for flight training in the United States. TSA also said that the deadline imposed by Congress to institute such a check for students training in aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds meant the agency had to issue the rule without the normal public review process.

"TSA went far beyond what Congress intended in Section 612 of 'Vision 100,' the FAA reauthorization act, as it applies to training in smaller aircraft," said Boyer. "And they missed their deadline by seven months. If they can push their deadline that far, they can certainly take additional time to consult with the industry and get a rule that is sound from a regulatory standpoint, meets congressional intent, and protects the rights of all pilots living in the United States.

"AOPA supports the mission of improved security, but there are much better ways to get there than this TSA rule," Boyer said.

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-2]September 30, 2004

[/size][/font]
 
Doesn't surprise me that the TSA would push legislation in an area that they don't fully understand. I have already enountered delays waiting for "security clearances" for >12.5 aircraft, because I'm not a citizen... even though I have lived in the US almost 20 years, and flying for the last 5. Laws like this cause more problems for legit people than they solve, IMHO.
 
I've always said that we created a monster with the TSA. Ten years from now we will realize that this was the biggest mistake coming out of 9/11.
 
YGBSM:

The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has issued new regulations, effective October 20, 2004, that require flight schools to verify students' proof of U.S. citizenship prior to beginning training (Flight or Simulator). To satisfy the requirements of this regulation, pilots must bring a valid, unexpired United States Passport.

(Ok, so a PITA and there are other ways to prove it, but livable.)
(Here's the WTF??! part:)



A U.S. Military ID does not constitute proof of U.S. Citizenship for the purposes of the TSA regulation.

Ok, granted it doesn't prove citizenship, but it's probably 95+% certain, and YOU'RE IN THE U.S. FRICKIN' MILITARY!!!!

Are U.S. Troops now a security risk flying Cessna's?!?! WhoTF is thinking up this crap? And if you're so concerned about that, seems like non-U.S. citizens in the military might be a risk too! (Personally, I don't care, but if you're 'thinking' along with the TSA lines of reasoning...)


Bureaucrat grade 26, hoping to make 25 sir!!
 
rcbullock said:
A U.S. Military ID does not constitute proof of U.S. Citizenship for the purposes of the TSA regulation.

Ok, granted it doesn't prove citizenship, but it's probably 95+% certain, and YOU'RE IN THE U.S. FRICKIN' MILITARY!!!![/font]

The reason is, that you don't have to be a citizen to serve in the US Military. Thus you can't use it as proof of citizenship.
 
Last edited:
Just thought of another point... What if you aren't a US Citizen, but already licensed... what do I have to do to get a rental checkout somewhere now? Security check every time I go to a new airport?


What if a non citizen wants to just rent but not do any new training? I haven't had time to read the proposal yet... so forgive me if it's answered in the first line.

Nick
 
nikoz1200 said:
Just thought of another point... What if you aren't a US Citizen, but already licensed... what do I have to do to get a rental checkout somewhere now? Security check every time I go to a new airport?


What if a non citizen wants to just rent but not do any new training? I haven't had time to read the proposal yet... so forgive me if it's answered in the first line.

Nick
What if you are not a citizen and own an airplane and you are a CFI? What if I am not a US citizen but a permanent resident? Why should I be exposed to the same background check sh*t as some guy who just came off the plane from his country?

I have been living in US for 15 years, and been a permanent resident for 3 1/2.
This is jsut basically preventing me from renting an airplane because in order to rent one, I have to complete a check out and that is considered an instruction.

Sh*t I am even trying to open a flight school in Pacific Northwest. What's the deal with TSA and others that leave 90,000 permanent resident pilots who live/work/sleep in the USA.
 
What if everyone that wasn't a citizen went back to their country to work when they finished their training? What if the people that were trained here, and started working, made every effort to become US citizens?
 
Duderino said:
What if everyone that wasn't a citizen went back to their country to work when they finished their training? What if the people that were trained here, and started working, made every effort to become US citizens?
Duderino,
what if "go back where you came from" people knew that it's not that easy to become a citizen due to law. What if people like you would get off my back so that I can run my two companies (One IT one in aviation) so that I can create more jobs.
What if people like you realized that I am not a fresh off the boat like people like you think I am..

What if it didn't take 5 years to be eligible to apply for US citizenship and another 3 to get one. But then you would complain that it's too easy for us..

Oh well..
 
FlyingToIST said:
Duderino,
what if "go back where you came from" people knew that it's not that easy to become a citizen due to law. What if people like you would get off my back so that I can run my two companies (One IT one in aviation) so that I can create more jobs.
What if people like you realized that I am not a fresh off the boat like people like you think I am..

What if it didn't take 5 years to be eligible to apply for US citizenship and another 3 to get one. But then you would complain that it's too easy for us..

Oh well..
LOL foztoy... I am waiting for the GC for 5 years now. All legit. I think this will be my 4th BG in two years out of which 3 was fingerprint + FBI checks. I have no problem with it believe or not, except that now as a CFI $130 is not fun to cash out so I can get my 1h long 141 standz done in a freaking 172RG. And except that it makes me wonder how many valuable FBI work hours my BG has already tied down for nothing taking away valuable resources from real problems. If they could only come up with one BIG motha' BG check that would have a chance to survive the next f_ag politician's personal agenda as well.

I guess I will get like 20 "get the f home" replies in a few minutes for this... soooooo hmmmm whatever...
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom