TSA hiring into left seat?

[nck4857]

Right now the schedules are pretty crappy, lineholders are getting 11 days off, with a couple of senior pilots getting 12 days off. Reserve is somewhat commutable, depending on where you commute from. Reserve pilots have 10 days off. We can usually call in and get a reserve time starting around 9 or 10am so as long as you can get in before that, it is possible to commute in on the same day. The only problem is that we're so under staffed and scheduling is so messed up that everything doesn't always work like it should. Also, as long as there is adequate coverage, they will generally let you move your reserve days around throughout the month, but even then everything is still subject to change by scheduling. During the pref bid trial period, there were many of us with 14, 15 or even 16 days off per month.

 

[acaTerry]

I heard that the pref bid is supposed to be coming back soon?

 

[temcgrew]

They arent hiring any more CQFO's. I think the company learned their lesson though. They have created a lot of problems on the line and now are quitting at a rate of about 1 per week. Or not cutting it in the sim

The company had only planned to hire so many, you make it sound like the got scared and decided not to hire any more!!! Maybe they were scared of the big bad alpa reps at tsa!!!

As for CQFO's not cutting it in the sim, the majority of the december class has time in the aircraft. There are 5 upgrades in the december class and 13 CQFO's and the only busted checkride so far was a 3 1/2 year FO who is upgrading!!!

I'm not sure about the ones who are quitting at a rate of about 1 per week, that could be true.

before anyone gets down on this, didn't CHQ do this for SAAB captains when they were growing into an all jet fleet? It was for growth, and it seemed to work for them.

 

[TWA Dude]

FO bids get rejected because CQFO's took the available CA slots.

I agree that a certain number of eligible fo's are being bypassed for upgrade. That's wrong and it's being grieved.

Do not tell me you were "assigned".

I didn't bid for it and neither was my preference ever considered. I was in fact assigned. You can try to pin blame on pilots but it really belongs on management.

I think if AMR would start hiring off the street without recalling you, you would understand how it feels to lose your position to someone who does not belong there.

You're right. I've never, ever seen an airline violate a contract. I have no idea how that could possibly feel. (read sarcasm)

Whether it is CQ's fault or not they have taken away the positions which were earned by the current FO's.

Who's taken away the upgrades, cqfo's or TSA management? Once you figure that out perhaps you'll know where to direct your anger.

Dude

 

[TWA Dude]

The FO seniority list has barely changed because these new hires are not on it, they go straight to the captain bidding list.

Not true. All the cqfo's start out bidding as fo's. The past two months I've bid as fo.

Hardly any of the fo's are upgrading so none of the fo's have moved up at all in the last 3 years on the fo list, therefore they are still on reserve after 3 years.

Perhaps in STL but certainly not in RIC.

None of the cqfo's are being placed below us on the fo list.

Please peruse the RIC list and be more informed.

Scheduling basically treats these very junior cqfo's as captains.

Scheduling treats every pilot the same way; like crap. They use cqfo's as captains when they need it. That's the whole point and it's in the contract. What's not in the contract is hiring cqfo's and delaying upgrades, hence the grievances.

Also, there are PLENTY OF QUALIFIED FO'S WAITING TO UPGRADE, many of which have over 3 or 4 years of seniority. If the company had done it right from the beginning, many of the fo's would have upgraded by now and therefore every fo still bidding as an fo would be bidding better lines and schedules.

You posted some inaccurate statements as supporting evidence so I still don't see how fo's without the time for upgrade are directly harmed by the presence of cqfo's. This isn't guesswork by me; I've been bidding as fo these past two months with only other cqfo's junior to me. Next month I was assigned to bid as captain and once again only cqfo's are junior to me.

Dude

 

[rush061272]

Ask your TW/AA buddies if they were asked about CQFO during the interview. Everybody knew that they will be CQ's when they interviewed, exept for the first two classes back in 2002. I had people walk out of class when they were not made CQFO's. A lot of your compadres were coming in full aware of the situation. So do not tell me you and other CQ's are innocent. I flew with enough CQFO's in the right seat, and if I hear another DC9, MD80,717 reference I'll puke. Some of the pilots in my new hire class (4.5 years ago) went to TW without finishing IOE at TSA now they will be back as captains because they flew the mighty Jet. Is it CQFO's fault? No, of course not. Is taking a CQFO position ethical? Would you trust the person who has done it? That's for you to decide. Would you let that person act high and mighty superior pilot on line with 50 turbine PIC behind their belt becouse they had a TW job? You tell me. Every Senior pilot in this company had TW interview scheduled before TW went under, some took the job, some saw the writing on the wall, some never got a chance to do it. FO's are aware of that. They are not impressed with that. It not that you are the CQFO they are mad at. It's the CQFO's attitude on line. You are not in TW/AA anymore, the CQFO position did take away the upgrade from a lot of deserving people. Act like it.
To answer you question about pilots with the upgrade time. Let me simplify it for you. Somebody already answered but you are not getting it. You are No 30 on reserve. 25 FO's ahead of you get upgraded. You are No 5 line holder. Or you are No 30 on reserve. Company hires 20 CQFO's, upgrades 5 FO's. You are No 25 on reserve. Now fast forward 2 years of this. Numbers are arbirtrary, but we did hire 5 CQ' for every CA we upgraded. There are more CQ' on 41 then CA.
We do have excellent guys that came through the CQ program, most of them prior TSA people. But we also got us some superior pilots. You think there is a reason that line pilots do not interview pilots like thay used to? You think they would hire those people?
Again it is a company problem, but CQ's being company pawns and acting up the role does not help anyone.

 

[B190Captain]

They have the time to upgrade. Management is trying to save on training costs. How would you feel if you paid your dues as an FO and were next in line for upgrade and then the company brings someone off the street as a Captain. That's why it's so wrong. If you think that this is a good deal you are definately in the wrong business.

Yeah but when the time comes for the senior FO's to upgrade. Those street Captains will not be rising in seniority, they will be dropping down. It is sh!tty for the company to hire off the street Captains when there are qualified FO's to upgrade.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey,
I am outraged, pi$$ed off to the max, this has to stop.
TSA is hiring CQFO's (Currently Qualified Fry Operators), to operate the X-Ray scanners, passing up up senior baggage snoops, as well as qualified shoe sniffers, who have spent days, if not months disrupting flight crews all over the country in the interest of national security.
Oh wait this is about, Waterski, not the other tsa...... gotta stop drinkin' prescription cough syrup for breakfast.
PBR

 

[TWA Dude]

Ask your TW/AA buddies if they were asked about CQFO during the interview. Everybody knew that they will be CQ's when they interviewed, exept for the first two classes back in 2002.

This is gonna be fun. Your first two sentences and you're already quite wrong. I interviewed last Aug. We were told "no more cqfo's will be hired". It wasn't until second week of indoc that we got the news. Two furloughed TWAers, including me, were assigned to the EMB. After a whole hour of EMB groundschool I was pulled out and reassigned to the the J41. Yippee. The other guy was the lucky one.

I had people walk out of class when they were not made CQFO's. A lot of your compadres were coming in full aware of the situation. So do not tell me you and other CQ's are innocent.

So they knew they might be cqfo's. BFD. You use the word "innocent" to imply some sort of improper action. All any of us did was accept employment at TSA. We didn't make ourselves cqfo's. You're channeling your anger at TSA in the wrong direction.

I flew with enough CQFO's in the right seat, and if I hear another DC9, MD80,717 reference I'll puke.

As long as you clean it up.

Some of the pilots in my new hire class (4.5 years ago) went to TW without finishing IOE at TSA now they will be back as captains because they flew the mighty Jet.

Hmmm. If flying a jet made us so qualified why were we put into a turboprop?

Is it CQFO's fault? No, of course not. Is taking a CQFO position ethical?

Time for some more fun! So to be "ethical" in your view I shouldn't have taken the position. That means quitting. You've got a lot of nerve telling me I should quit in protest when you aren't. And you're forgetting something very important: ALPA never told us we shouldn't come to TSA. Your version of ethics differs very greatly from the union that's handled issues far greater and worse than this.

Would you trust the person who has done it? That's for you to decide.

I've been on line here for over two months now. I have nothing but respect for all the captains and fo's I've flown with thus far. Sure, I've heard a few earfuls from fo's and for the most part I've agreed with them: TSA is screwing them.

Would you let that person act high and mighty superior pilot on line with 50 turbine PIC behind their belt becouse they had a TW job? You tell me.

Good point. Good thing most cqfo's don't act "high and mighty". Of course in your eyes the very act that TSA hired us condemns us.

It not that you are the CQFO they are mad at. It's the CQFO's attitude on line. You are not in TW/AA anymore, the CQFO position did take away the upgrade from a lot of deserving people. Act like it.

To listen to you people might actually think cqfo's have some kind of attitude. I think it's the other way around.

To answer you question about pilots with the upgrade time. Let me simplify it for you. Somebody already answered but you are not getting it. You are No 30 on reserve. 25 FO's ahead of you get upgraded. You are No 5 line holder. Or you are No 30 on reserve. Company hires 20 CQFO's, upgrades 5 FO's. You are No 25 on reserve. Now fast forward 2 years of this. Numbers are arbirtrary, but we did hire 5 CQ' for every CA we upgraded. There are more CQ' on 41 then CA.

Rush: I say this with all sincerity and no intent to inflame you, but I didn't follow your explanation at all. You lost me with the sentence, "Or you are No 30 on reserve." What does the "or" mean?

Again it is a company problem, but CQ's being company pawns and acting up the role does not help anyone.

Well, you're gonna find a certain percentage of any pilot group disagreeable. The fact is that I've never met most of the ex-TWA cqfo's before this job. You speak of cq's with attitude problems. How pervasive is it truly? I haven't heard much. Keep in mind just one bad apple can be exaggerated and all of a sudden become "many".

Dude

 

[rush061272]

When you interviewed in Aug everybody before you was made a CQFO so if you want to live in denial so be it. Only the blind could not see what was going on.
. If you so good why don't you go somewhere else. You were not hired by the pilots of this company. If you were here before the CQFO program you would be. You were not interviewed by line pilot like the rest of us were.You did not even fly the sim during the interview. How many companies hire people like that. You were hired to be a CQFO.
If you do not understand how bypassing seniority for bidding lines works I cant explain it to you. If you do you would understand how you affect junior FO's.
Iam sure you are a good pilot, so do not take this personal. But I am tired of CQ's telling me they did not know. I was in the class of 15 CQ's during upgrade and they all knew. If you worked here before like your profile suggests, you should know better then listen to the company. Do I want you to quit, hell no, it was not your fault that company is plaing games. But claiming ignorance to the events preceding your rehire, oh well that's on you. Be nice to your FO they might be you CA (CQFO's) one day.

 

[TWA Dude]

When you interviewed in Aug everybody before you was made a CQFO so if you want to live in denial so be it.

In denial of what? They told us "no more cqfo's". And you wanna know the funny part? If I'd had the chance to bid I would've bid EMB FO. Most airlines allow newhires to bid for initial equipment but for some reason we can't here.

As to TWA hiring criteria, how many 1500 hr people did you hire. How many of them had relatives at TW.

I don't know and probably most of the them. Congratulations, you've broken the airline nepotism code! Is there a point?

If you so good why don't you go somewhere else.

Dude, you're becoming incoherent. Who ever said anything about flying skills? But since you asked, I was in the pool at ACA before they furloughed and like all pilots I'm actively seeking better opportunities.

You were not interviewed by line pilot like the rest of us were.

True. So? Over a hundred regular FO's have been hired since September by the same interviewers.

You did not even fly the sim during the interview. How many companies hire people like that.

Southwest and United come to mind.

You were hired to be a CQFO.

If I was I then why wasn't I informed until after an hour of EMB groundschool?

Before your eyes cross even more with anger keep in mind how little it accomplishes to denigrate the cqfo's. If you think you're going to shame us into quitting you know very little about how unions operate. Contract violations are grieved and if not settled go to an arbitrator. This isn't about pilots; it's about TSA management and their unwillingness to staff this airline properly. I've seen a lot of pilots get real angry at other pilots due to actions of their respective management. It's irrational. If you should meet me and fly with me and then decide you hate that's your prerogative. If you hate me because I refuse to become unemployed over a contract issue then you're ignorant.

Dude

 

[medic&cfi]

I do not understand why you think FO's without time to upgrade are in no way impacted by the CQFO issue. Because of the CQFO issue, very few senior FO's are upgraded. When few FO's are upgraded, the FO seniority list is stagnant. Many FO's have been on reserve for over a year because the FO's senior to them remain on the FO list because they are not upgrading.

If the senior FO's with the time were upgraded, the junior FO's on reserve would move up the FO seniority list and would hold lines instead of being on reserve. They would have more days off, better QOL, and more money. Because the senior FO's are not being upgraded, the junior FO's are not able to advance up the FO seniority list, therefore they remain on reserve with a QOL, pay, and schedule that are worse than if they were able to move up. They are impacted by the CQFO issue too.

Do you really not understand that?

 

[rush061272]

Get your story strait with airline hiring. If you have a type in 737 why would you need a sim ride ( yea I know you have 41 type but a lot of CQ's never flown a turboprop) United, yea that the hiring department you want to look up to.
Regular FO do fly sim,( frasca but still and it is done by a line pilot), during interview again get your facts straigth. Congratulation on your fourth mistake on picking an airline. Your attitude of holier then thou becouse you have been there and done that is what I was referring previously.
You have made the choice to swith between four airlines and ended up on the bottom of seniority here. I do not care for what you done. I am senior to you, my FO is senior to you, yet you act like you are somehow better. You have the answer for everything, and you're never part of any of the problems. I think we call that rasionalization in CRM.
I am not angry, just bored today. Personally CQ program did not affect me at all. But I do feel for my friends.

P.S.
I hope 5479 guys are ok.

 

[TWA Dude]

Do you really not understand that?

You know how sometimes things just click? Okay, now I get it and I agree that all FO's are negatively affected by the company's failure to upgrade. I was wrong and I edited my above posting.

Dude

 

[medic&cfi]

I know what you mean, Dude. I think we all agree this is a bad deal for us all, CQFO's included . . .