Transponders downlinking data to ATC

[flyf15]

Apparently in Europe, they're starting to have transponders downlink data to ATC in real time. Indicated airspeed, heading, selected altitude, etc... so that the air traffic controllers can see if we're correctly complying with their instructions. All with no interaction from the pilot.

Personally, this freaks me out. Is there any chance of this coming to North America? It seems like it could cause every single one of us to get multiple pilot deviations on our records unless we have some sort of protection.

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...spx?itemid=10527&ModuleId=4755&Tabid=256#jump

 

[rickair7777]

It's called ADS-B. Yes, it's coming.

Presumably the FAA knows enough about human factors so they not program their computers to automatically mail you a letter of investigation when the data feed shows 153 Kts @ 9,992' MSL.

I assume the data will be provided to the controllers for their use, and they will decide what to do. However if a controller does decide to turn you in, he will have a much more precise record of what happened than primary radar paints and mode C ALT!

 

[Baze]

Out-f*cking-standing!

 

[flyf15]

Say I'm busy and exhausted during approach... I'm doing 250kts assigned in a descent with the autopilot on. It levels off and I don't notice for a second and my speed gets down to 230kts. I correct it quickly.. within a second or two. Everyone has done this. What guarantee am I going to have that I won't be getting a violation in the mail?

I'm assigned a heading of 120 on an extremely busy frequency in an area of weather. I accept it then as I'm in my turn, realize that it is going to take me right through a small but particularly nasty looking cell. I momentarily stop my turn for a second to keep me clear of it, all the while attempting to get a word in. Controller sees that I'm stopped at heading 140 and before I'm able to notify him of why, he's the one asking me. Everyone has done this. What guarantee am I going to have that I won't be getting a violation in the mail?

Many controllers are not pilots, do not know how our planes operate, and will not understand why we're not doing exactly as told every single second of the flight.... even if it is just by accident. Or, how do we even know it will be the controller snitching on us, I'm sure the ATC computers can... and will... notice for them.

We need protection.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Actually, ADS-B is not what they're using, but similar. It's the 1090Mhz extended squitter which is transmitted by your Mode S transponder.

You set the wrong altitude in the MCP window, you will get a query from the controller.

It basically gives them a much better prediction of what you're doing and how you're doing it.

Chances are, your CRJ/ERJ doesn't even have the Elementary Surveillance which transmits the Flight ID (flight number).


What's next, camera's downliked to the FAA?

Nice.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

This sort of reminds me of when the last 2 airlines I flew for came up with the bright idea to install cameras in the cockpit. That went over like a lead balloon.

The Man is always watching.

 

[DrewBlows]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADS-B

U.S. implementation timetable

The U.S. FAA ADS-B implementation is broken into three segments each with a corresponding time line. Ground segment implementation and deployment is expected to begin in 2009 and be completed by 2013 throughout the National Airspace System. Airborne equipage is user driven and is expected to be completed both voluntarily based on perceived benefits and through regulatory actions (Rulemaking) by the FAA. The cost to equip with ADS-B Out capability is relatively small and would benefit the airspace with surveillance in areas not currently served by radar. The FAA intends to provide similar service within the NAS to what radar is currently providing (5NM en route and 3NM terminal radar standards) as a first step to implementation. However, ADS-B In capability is viewed as the most likely way to improve NAS throughput and enhance capacity.

FAA segment 1 (2006-2009)

ADS-B deployment and voluntary equipage, along with rule making activities. Pockets of development will exploit equipment deployment in the areas that will provide proof of concept for integration to ATC automation systems deployed in the NAS.

FAA segment 2 (2010-2014)

ADS-B ground stations will be deployed throughout the NAS, with an In-Service Decision due in the 2012-13 time frame. Completed deployment will occur in the 2013-2014 time frame. Equipage is expected to begin after the proposed rule is finalized in around 2010.

• Airport Situational Awareness – A combination of detailed airport maps, airport multilateration systems, ADS-B systems and enhanced aircraft displays have the potential to significantly improve Final Approach and Runway Occupancy Awareness (FAROA).
• Oceanic In-trail – ADS-B may provide enhanced situational awareness and safety for Oceanic In-trail manoeuvres as additional aircraft become equipped.
• Gulf of Mexico – In the Gulf of Mexico, where ATC radar coverage is incomplete, the FAA is locating ADS-B (1090 MHz) receivers on oil rigs to relay information received from aircraft equipped with ADS-B extended squitters back to the Houston Center to expand and improve surveillance coverage.

FAA segment 3 (2015-2020)

ADS-B In equipage will be based on user perceived benefit, but is expected to be providing increased situational awareness and efficiency benefits within this segment. Those aircraft who choose to equip in advance of any mandate will see benefits associated with preferential routes and specific applications. Limited radar decommissioning will begin in the time frame with an ultimate goal of a 50% reduction in the Secondary Surveillance Radar infrastructure.

 

[AvroGuy]

Many controllers are not pilots, do not know how our planes operate, and will not understand why we're not doing exactly as told every single second of the flight.... even if it is just by accident. Or, how do we even know it will be the controller snitching on us, I'm sure the ATC computers can... and will... notice for them.

We need protection.

Most likely there are alot more controllers who have been doing thier job longer than you have been doing yours. Anyway, it all comes down to the pilot and the regs. If you are in your turn and the crummy RADAR paints a cell and stop your turn. well it was safety related. File an ASAP report and you will be safe if the controller decides to file against you. Now it you are doing 320 blow 10k, well that is your crews fault, file an ASAP.

Most controllers understand flying is dynamic and everchanging. Well atleast here in the states, I can't speak for international controllers.

 

[freeflyer14]

Many controllers are not pilots, do not know how our planes operate, and will not understand why we're not doing exactly as told every single second of the flight.... even if it is just by accident.

And this is why I believe we need to get them back in the jumpseats from time to time, to observe actual line flying. There is an entire new generation of atc'ers that have never seen a flight crew in action. They may hear us say we need 10 right for weather, but do they really understand what we're looking at and what we're doing? So much can be learned from us observing their operations, and vice versa.

 

[CFI2766]

And this is why I believe we need to get them back in the jumpseats from time to time, to observe actual line flying. There is an entire new generation of atc'ers that have never seen a flight crew in action. They may hear us say we need 10 right for weather, but do they really understand what we're looking at and what we're doing? So much can be learned from us observing their operations, and vice versa.

I haven't seen or heard of a controller on the jumpseat in quite a while, do they not do this anymore?

 

[freeflyer14]

No longer allowed...

 

[trolleydriver]

Got a crew memo at work that basically said that when they review the radar tapes (to check a controller's performance) and they notice a pilot deviation - that there is a possibility the FAA will mail out violation to the crew involved, even though the controller didn't notice it. So several people get dinged in this review process, the controller and the crew.

Point - file ASAP when you deviate whether the controller mentions it or not.

Sucks getting a violation for something that happened in the past when they're checking the tapes.