Training on all Glass

[paulsalem]

According to a letter sent out to all Ohio University Aviation students OU is slated to take delivery in April 2005 (barring the factory isn't blown away by a hurricane) of 7 new Piper Warrior IIIs with all glass Avidyn cockpits.

OU will also have 2 C-172s and 2 152s (all IFR cert) that do have the "old" steam gauges.

Anyone trained any 0 hour students on glass? Or used glass for inital instrument training?

Thoughts?

 

[CDVdriver]

We're expecting a C182 nav 3 at the end of the year with the Garmin 1000

As of now we are not intending to to any primary training on it.
High perf., an insurance nightmare obviously.
The plan is Instrument training and rental for now.
Curious on how we are supposed to do partial panel training.

 

[banned username 2]

Anyone trained any 0 hour students on glass? Or used glass for inital instrument training?

Thoughts?

I would hope that primary students as well as Instrument students continue to be trained on the "steam gauges"... Transitioning to glass later is fine, but if you don't do the initial training (especially for IFR) on steam gauges, a proper scan will never develop...

 

[paulsalem]

What I am wondering is can you teach somone the "stare" on all glass, and have him switch over to steam gauges that require a scan. I guess we'll soon see.

 

[Caveman]

I disagree with the comment about developing a 'proper' scan. Proper for what? It's the same info but in a different format. A proficient instrument pilot that never flew a glass cockpit would be no more or less comfortable in a glass cockpit than a glass only pilot in a steam gauge cockpit. Both would have some adjusting to do. Law of primacy.

To be fair, I know plenty of steam gauge pilots that transitioned to glass but I don't know anyone who did it the other way around. As noted in a post above, I guess we're going to find out.

 

[Vortilon]

After flying all glass at the regionals for years, my first airplane at DAL was the 737-200. That was one hard transition. "Hey, where's my moving map? Where the hell am I? What do you mean it doesn't do that automatically?" I can't imagine what it would had been like if I'd never flown a steam gauge airplane.

It has to be a difficult time to be a flight instructor. Hand-held GPS units were just coming out when I was instructing and it was sometimes difficult to convey the value of learning pilotage & ded reconing. How to use a VOR, NDB, etc when a monkey could find his position on a hand-held garmin. It has to be even harder now with the advanced cockpits in the most basic of aircraft.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

I agree with Vortilon. After flying the CRJ for over 2 years and upgrading and going back into the EMB-120 I was totally lost. The scan is basically the same: airspeed on the left, altitude on the right, heading on the bottom, Attitude in the middle. But actually moving your eyes 20-30 degrees left and right while scanning on steam gauges is a lot different than 2-3 degrees on a glass PFD. I was like a brand new instrument student on my first day in the sim on the E-120. It eventually came back. Flying with moving maps and GPS is great but I can imagine someone who has always had those to rely on having a tough time with their situational awareness when they have to fly a transport category aircraft with no FMS or GPS. The magic is great but it's always good to learn on the basics. That way you appreciate the magic.

 

[Metro III]

Transition

Speaking of moving from one way to the other. I'm about to go from flying the Metroliner to the Donier 328. "Old School" to "New School" does anyone have any suggestions for books on FMS EFIS etc. for the beginner on such systems. I want a headstart before going in for the type. Thanks

 

[BankAccount=0$]

Having spent the day in the clouds working with a student in his Avidyne equipped Cirrus SR-22 this thread was sort of funny to run across. With all of the glass panel technology appearing in "little" GA aircraft, the biggest problem I have seen is the lack of understanding that the owners have in all of the avionics. For instance in the SR-22 if there is a complete display failure and you are IMC and have to shoot an approach what do you do?? I asked my student that the other day and recieved some sort of mumbo jumbo about dual batteries and fail-safe this and that. The truth is that when he was trained at the factory when he picked the A/C up they didn't cover that possibility, and so there was no mention of the oft forgotten ASR and PAR approaches that don't require the glass displays.

There are going to be a lot of inexperienced guys out there buying the glass panels and hiring local CFII's to teach them and that is going to be a difficult learning curve for the CFII's to try and learn on the fly. I think it's fair to say that the majority of us learned on steam gauges, and are used to looking over to the left and interpreting what we see accordingly. The glass is a whole different story, and at times the screen is almost unreadable from the right seat, especially if it has fingerprints and smears across it. After 10-15 hours flying the glass displays I am thouroughly convinced that from a safety standpoint they are the way to go, but it's going to take some major changes to get the instructor community up to speed on all of the changing tech. coming out there to the GA pilots. The fortunate thing is that if you can get some experience in these advanced avionics you can demand a premium for your services and who doesn't like a little extra beer money??

 

[CaSyndrm]

B.S. A scan is a scan regardless of the display in front of you. I've done both from both dirctions and if this is an issue than the pilot probably has other issues and is just using this as an excuse. A good pilot with good hands can adapt to anything.

 

[bobbysamd]

Speaking of moving from one way to the other. I'm about to go from flying the Metroliner to the Donier 328. "Old School" to "New School" does anyone have any suggestions for books on FMS EFIS etc. for the beginner on such systems. I want a headstart before going in for the type. Thanks

The Turbine Pilot's Flight Manual by Brown and Holt is a well-written book that addresses basic turbine systems and knowledge and several other issues in plain English. Chapter 13 discusses FMS, etc. It's a great book.

Hope that helps.

 

[slowtation capt]

Speaking of moving from one way to the other. I'm about to go from flying the Metroliner to the Donier 328. "Old School" to "New School" does anyone have any suggestions for books on FMS EFIS etc. for the beginner on such systems. I want a headstart before going in for the type. Thanks

Suggest posting this on the regional message board. I have seen some PSA guys posting there, and they did fly the DO328, maybe they would have some infor for ya.

 

[Lead Sled]

B.S. A scan is a scan regardless of the display in front of you. I've done both from both dirctions and if this is an issue than the pilot probably has other issues and is just using this as an excuse. A good pilot with good hands can adapt to anything.

Exactly.

 

[JediNein]

Curious on how we are supposed to do partial panel training.

Pull Circuit Breakers!

I also have this large vinyl screen cover...

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Lead Sled]

Curious on how we are supposed to do partial panel training.

Partial panel training with EFIS? Simple, just cover one eye.