Training in other peoples airplanes

[350DRIVER]

Not true. The FAA has ruled many times that a CFI is PIC even if that CFI is not in the front seat and does not have access to the flight controls. The remedial training programs, 709 rides, and so on don't make it to the online court cases. Besides, can most CFIs afford an NTSB appeal? Can their estate?

Can you point me to a specific far that will back up that under all circumstances that a cfi who is onboard a owner furnished aircraft is assumed to be the pic?. I had somewhat of a hard time locating this regulation.... I am familiar with the cases that you are referring to where the mei was in the back and two students were up front.

3 5 0

 

[midlifeflyer]

I am familiar with the cases that you are referring to where the mei was in the back and two students were up front.

Can you point me to =that= one?

 

[JediNein]

The 5 hours PIC in make/model only applies in providing instruction for a certificate or rating.

Don't even go there. This is an issue the FAA will fight all the way to the NTSB full board. The instructor that is the defendent is looking at an emergency revocation of their certificates.

Five hours make and model applies to any instruction in a twin that can be even remotely linked to being for a certificate or a rating, including currency, proficiency, BFR/IPC, using the avionics, and so on.

Having survived one investigation, I prefer to not be the sorry SOB that is the FAA's test case to set NTSB precedent.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[vclean]

I'm just referring to 61.195(f). I don't know what special experience you had concerning multi instruction with the FAA. If your circumstance involved certificate revocation and appeals to the NTSB board, perhaps there was more than the issue of not having five hours PIC in M/M to give a BFR/IPC or avionics demo.

 

[350DRIVER]

Can you point me to =that= one?

I don't recall names of the FL & AZ flight schools but the accidents that I recall happened in light twins with two students up front and the mei in the back. Do a search on the ntsb accident database. These accidents were not in "owner furnished" aircraft.

3 5 0

 

[cessna_driver2]

The only other thing I would think about is if the school you instruct at has a no freelance clause.

 

[JediNein]

I'm just referring to 61.195(f). I don't know what special experience you had concerning multi instruction with the FAA. If your circumstance involved certificate revocation and appeals to the NTSB board, perhaps there was more than the issue of not having five hours PIC in M/M to give a BFR/IPC or avionics demo.

It was an ASI out for blood and this was his sixth attempt. He didn't get any because I did have the five hours as PIC in M/M.

It surprised me because I didn't think 61.195(f) applied to IPCs or avionics training. According to John Lynch, the ASI, and FAA National HQ's Legal Team, it does apply and woe be to the CFI/MEI/CFII that dares to think otherwise. See the Part 61 FAQ Question #641.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[zuka]

See the Part 61 FAQ Question #641.

Can someone post this FAQ #641? I can't find it...

 

[zuka]

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

How are you supposed to get M&M experience in a high perfomance privately owned twin if the Insurance company won't cover you as PIC without time in type and owner isn't an instructor so he can't give you dual. Owner isn't going to pay for instructor to go to flightsafety on his piston twin and instructor can't afford that.

I flew with some owners and gave them some instruction on the GPS which they had no clue how to use, and logged it as dual given which gave me time in type. It wasn't for a certificate or rating and the owner would rather go flying than sit in front of a computer using a GPS simulator so I didn't complain.

The reg does say 5 M&M for a certificate or rating, but YES, I think you will get blamed if ANYTHING happens.

I heard a story about a guy who crashed his plane and the family went through his logbook and tried to sue everybody and anybody who touched the plane including mechanics, and any instructor he flew with.

 

[JediNein]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?postid=455748#post455748

Perhaps it hasn't made it into the public FAQ document, yet.

Basically, the owner sits there and keeps you from killing yourself while you do a self-checkout in the plane.

John Lynch states the avionics training is for "educational/informative" purposes so don't even sign a WINGS card, say anything in either logbook that differs from "GPS instruction", or credit the time spend towards the tasks listed in the PTS for an IPC unless you have the 5 hours make/model.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein