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Training in Europe
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uwochris
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Unless you have citizenship to a European country, you will not be able to work there. Also, if you train in the USA, you will need to convert your licenses to JAA (i.e. european) and this is very expensive.
Most europeans come to Canada or USA to train because it is cheaper. Flying in EU is more than 2X what it is here.
Most europeans come to Canada or USA to train because it is cheaper. Flying in EU is more than 2X what it is here.
uwochris
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I have no clue as to how the market is there.
If you go to the www.pprune.org message forums there, you will be able to find that out. This is a forum for predominantly European (mostly british) airline pilots. There is lots of info there.
If you go to the www.pprune.org message forums there, you will be able to find that out. This is a forum for predominantly European (mostly british) airline pilots. There is lots of info there.
bobbysamd
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JAA certificates
Delta Connection Academy fka Comair Aviation Academy is one such school. A quick search revealed International Flight Training Academy in Stuart, Florida and Naples Air Center as two other schools that offer JAA training. You should ask if you can obtain your FAA certificates along with your JAA licenses.
Finally, it helps to be a national of the country in which you want to work. Non-nationals are considered second, or lower, if they're considered at all.
Hope this helps. Good luck with your plans.
You might consider training with a U.S. school that trains for JAA licenses.cubegirl7 said:
Delta Connection Academy fka Comair Aviation Academy is one such school. A quick search revealed International Flight Training Academy in Stuart, Florida and Naples Air Center as two other schools that offer JAA training. You should ask if you can obtain your FAA certificates along with your JAA licenses.
Finally, it helps to be a national of the country in which you want to work. Non-nationals are considered second, or lower, if they're considered at all.
Hope this helps. Good luck with your plans.
Last edited:
SwissAviator
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To tell you my opinion, i would not start any JAA flight training right now. First, there is most probably no job for you available (every year we get hundred's of newly licensed JAA pilots who a desperate for a job) second, the training is very expensive (especially the yearly renewal which has to be flown with a member state aircraft) and third, there will be a new licence in about two years which is called "EASA" and should be much more harmonized with the FAA.
The current JAR is mainly a dutch invention and other countried adopted it. Sure, you have a JAR-FCL paper but other countries still put there own little thing onto it (means in Germany, you need to speak german, forget France because they only accept JAR licences issued by the former DGAC, etc. etc). I wonder why they have ever invented such a license system. It makes you feel that you could work in any JAR member country, but you don't.
The new EASA license shall be one for whole Europe with no exemptions for each individual country...let's pray for it. It should also make an FAA conversion much easier - vice versa...
My personal opinion is that it feels like discremination against other ICAO countries. The reason why the JAA acts like this is that they now that flight training in the USA is much cheaper thanEurope. They do everything possible to prevent people from getting their licenses in the USA and convert.
I have been trained by a "dual" system, did a large part in the USA and another part in Europe (with the airline). I am thankful that we have trained initially in the USA with a rigorous training program. You really learn how to fly an aircraft. Most PPL pilots in Europe know why it flies, but...
My advise, take the training in the USA and stay since you have citizenship. Don't go for a flying job in Europe now, it's nearly hopeless !
And if you ever wanna fly here, wait until the JAR is over....we are counting every day
Cheers, sub
The current JAR is mainly a dutch invention and other countried adopted it. Sure, you have a JAR-FCL paper but other countries still put there own little thing onto it (means in Germany, you need to speak german, forget France because they only accept JAR licences issued by the former DGAC, etc. etc). I wonder why they have ever invented such a license system. It makes you feel that you could work in any JAR member country, but you don't.
The new EASA license shall be one for whole Europe with no exemptions for each individual country...let's pray for it. It should also make an FAA conversion much easier - vice versa...
My personal opinion is that it feels like discremination against other ICAO countries. The reason why the JAA acts like this is that they now that flight training in the USA is much cheaper thanEurope. They do everything possible to prevent people from getting their licenses in the USA and convert.
I have been trained by a "dual" system, did a large part in the USA and another part in Europe (with the airline). I am thankful that we have trained initially in the USA with a rigorous training program. You really learn how to fly an aircraft. Most PPL pilots in Europe know why it flies, but...
My advise, take the training in the USA and stay since you have citizenship. Don't go for a flying job in Europe now, it's nearly hopeless !
And if you ever wanna fly here, wait until the JAR is over....we are counting every day
Cheers, sub
Would love to give you more details but Brussels is still heavily working on the papers and changes things everyday.
Most of us are for this harmonization thing since it makes life so much easier but when i listen to some old national PPL instructors - it makes me sick !! They have such an attitude towards foreign pilot licences, its unbelievable.
Example: I know a girl who made her Private in the US. She came back to my country and wanted to convert into JAR-PPL. Uhh the instructor gave her a VERY BAD attitude. Telling that she can't fly aircraft anyways and that all this US-PPL stuff is **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** anyways...It was going so far that she still havent got her PPL yet (1 year from now and stopped training being so frustrated...).
I am sick and tired of listening to all these Euro-Stories and that every country invented flying.
I fly in Europe and i can assure you, that operating a heavy aircraft in Europe is 99% similar to the US. There are some ATC and ICAO procedures differences but for this, you don't need to sit 14 JAR exams !
The only good thing is the ATPL Theory course and the Jet transition training my airline provided. Very useful and a lot of knowledge for a new entrant pilot. They prepare you very carefully for your first airline job. It dosn't matter if you have 300 hrs or 1200 hrs in piston airplanes. The first second when you learn to operate a jet or fast prop aircraft during bridge training, you learn lot's of new things and tricks for handling and operation. But thats an airline freebie and not available to all JAR students (by the way, i made a national license and converted - i am not a real JA-FCL Pilot ).
Happy new Year !
sub
Most of us are for this harmonization thing since it makes life so much easier but when i listen to some old national PPL instructors - it makes me sick !! They have such an attitude towards foreign pilot licences, its unbelievable.
Example: I know a girl who made her Private in the US. She came back to my country and wanted to convert into JAR-PPL. Uhh the instructor gave her a VERY BAD attitude. Telling that she can't fly aircraft anyways and that all this US-PPL stuff is **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** anyways...It was going so far that she still havent got her PPL yet (1 year from now and stopped training being so frustrated...).
I am sick and tired of listening to all these Euro-Stories and that every country invented flying
.I fly in Europe and i can assure you, that operating a heavy aircraft in Europe is 99% similar to the US. There are some ATC and ICAO procedures differences but for this, you don't need to sit 14 JAR exams !
The only good thing is the ATPL Theory course and the Jet transition training my airline provided. Very useful and a lot of knowledge for a new entrant pilot. They prepare you very carefully for your first airline job. It dosn't matter if you have 300 hrs or 1200 hrs in piston airplanes. The first second when you learn to operate a jet or fast prop aircraft during bridge training, you learn lot's of new things and tricks for handling and operation. But thats an airline freebie and not available to all JAR students (by the way, i made a national license and converted - i am not a real JA-FCL Pilot
).Happy new Year !
sub
cubegirl7
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2003
- Posts
- 54
EASA licence
I found a good article on it:
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/om/200011/easa.htm
Buck
I found a good article on it:
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/om/200011/easa.htm
Buck
Msg for sublimaze
Hey Sub'!
Where do you come from? From which EU country? You seem to have experienced the **** French DGAC! In Europe the market is in a very very bad shape...
In france except the only one Major Air France there is no opportunity to get a F/O job. Yes there are some Air France regional feeders but the job openings for the next 10 years are limited to 10 positions within 1 year, another 10 in 2005 etc... I would say that the best EU aviation market is in UK! As "Business" is an english word this is not surprising... Did you know that in France there are only 400 jet liners? Air France and its regional feeders own 90% of these 400. After you're in the turbo prop field which is crappy as well.
What a bad situation.... really.
Let's give you some datas. Assuming you're an airline transport wanabee in France...
- 1st Class Medical JAR initial examination: 450€ (much more restrictive than the US medical...)
- You must have a PPL license before starting the "upper lever" ground school : price from 6000€ to 10 000€
Then you're lucky enough to start your ATPL ground school. In France the major groundschool is "Institut Jean Mermoz" in Orly (South of Paris). You can attend this course full time or via distance learning... I must told you this is NOT a funny "game" to enroll in that course. It's very hard because in France, UNFORTUNATELY, we consider flying an aircraft like doing a Ph.D in Mathematics. I mean you should be ready to work mathematics and physics books before being able to understand the course (I'm not kidding!). So many students have a science educationnal background... We can't fly with passion, we do it with Math... I'd say this is a typical French way.
So 14 exams (principles of flight, mass and balance...) to sit and pass.
Price of the course range from 3000€ (DL) to 10 000€ (Full time) (all included, fees...)
.... Wow you did it! Fine job! At this time you MUST not think about what will be the opportunies when you'll send your résumé to "every airline".... Or you might consider a suicide attempt.
Then because you're just a PPL licensee you have to build your flight experience! Moving to the US for a while to rent an aircraft represents the cheapest way to log 150h which lead you to be eligible to start your Commercial License. In France we used to do the IFR after the CPL... Cost : 8000€
CPL 9000€
IFR + multi : price range from 25 000€ to 30 000€
Then because you would like to work as a F/O for an airline , you have to do the MCC, Multi Crew Coordination, needed prior starting a type rating (That's the CRM courses we have in USA). Price: 5000€
So.... Here is the HUGE bill: range from 56450€ to incredible amount!
NOW, you're ready to find a job. That's not easy... You have only 300 hours.... what a great experience. Finally, that's very hard to find a decent flight instructor position here.
So How to do? Win a Greencard and go back on track on a BS and do your flight training at a local FBO!
That was a kind of negative report on the JAR FCL French market but I just wanted to show you how desesperate might be some young pilots dreaming of a F/O position (many of them have huge loan to pack back as well).
Of course some low time pilots found jobs there... But...
KD5UEN
Hey Sub'!
Where do you come from? From which EU country? You seem to have experienced the **** French DGAC! In Europe the market is in a very very bad shape...
In france except the only one Major Air France there is no opportunity to get a F/O job. Yes there are some Air France regional feeders but the job openings for the next 10 years are limited to 10 positions within 1 year, another 10 in 2005 etc... I would say that the best EU aviation market is in UK! As "Business" is an english word this is not surprising... Did you know that in France there are only 400 jet liners? Air France and its regional feeders own 90% of these 400. After you're in the turbo prop field which is crappy as well.
What a bad situation.... really.
Let's give you some datas. Assuming you're an airline transport wanabee in France...
- 1st Class Medical JAR initial examination: 450€ (much more restrictive than the US medical...)
- You must have a PPL license before starting the "upper lever" ground school : price from 6000€ to 10 000€
Then you're lucky enough to start your ATPL ground school. In France the major groundschool is "Institut Jean Mermoz" in Orly (South of Paris). You can attend this course full time or via distance learning... I must told you this is NOT a funny "game" to enroll in that course. It's very hard because in France, UNFORTUNATELY, we consider flying an aircraft like doing a Ph.D in Mathematics. I mean you should be ready to work mathematics and physics books before being able to understand the course (I'm not kidding!). So many students have a science educationnal background... We can't fly with passion, we do it with Math... I'd say this is a typical French way.
So 14 exams (principles of flight, mass and balance...) to sit and pass.
Price of the course range from 3000€ (DL) to 10 000€ (Full time) (all included, fees...)
.... Wow you did it! Fine job! At this time you MUST not think about what will be the opportunies when you'll send your résumé to "every airline".... Or you might consider a suicide attempt.
Then because you're just a PPL licensee you have to build your flight experience! Moving to the US for a while to rent an aircraft represents the cheapest way to log 150h which lead you to be eligible to start your Commercial License. In France we used to do the IFR after the CPL... Cost : 8000€
CPL 9000€
IFR + multi : price range from 25 000€ to 30 000€
Then because you would like to work as a F/O for an airline , you have to do the MCC, Multi Crew Coordination, needed prior starting a type rating (That's the CRM courses we have in USA). Price: 5000€
So.... Here is the HUGE bill: range from 56450€ to incredible amount!
NOW, you're ready to find a job. That's not easy... You have only 300 hours.... what a great experience. Finally, that's very hard to find a decent flight instructor position here.
So How to do? Win a Greencard and go back on track on a BS and do your flight training at a local FBO!
That was a kind of negative report on the JAR FCL French market but I just wanted to show you how desesperate might be some young pilots dreaming of a F/O position (many of them have huge loan to pack back as well).
Of course some low time pilots found jobs there... But...
KD5UEN
Last edited:
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Air France aside
The "flying with math" comment above is apt. Air France/Air Inter had a contract with FlightSafety in 1991. I gave a number of pre-stage checks to the Air France/Air Inter students who were being trained. I remember that nearly all of them would have their heads in the cockpit while flying. I was told it was because they were constantly calculating decent profiles and complicated standard-rate turn bank angle formulae as they were flying.
The "flying with math" comment above is apt. Air France/Air Inter had a contract with FlightSafety in 1991. I gave a number of pre-stage checks to the Air France/Air Inter students who were being trained. I remember that nearly all of them would have their heads in the cockpit while flying. I was told it was because they were constantly calculating decent profiles and complicated standard-rate turn bank angle formulae as they were flying.
@ KD5UEN - i come from the tiny little country in the middle of Europe who is actually NOT a part of the EU (we are well known for cheese, matterhorn and chocolate...).
The placement of the country gives a good look in every "compass heading" of authorities. West DGAC, South Italy, North LBA, East Austrocontrol.
Some european countries just don't know where to stop with all their theoretical training.
Sometimes your most important task is to fly the aircraft - right now- and not to complete a ton of calculations...or be distracted by other fancy things.
sub
(we are well known for cheese, matterhorn and chocolate...).The placement of the country gives a good look in every "compass heading" of authorities. West DGAC, South Italy, North LBA, East Austrocontrol.
Some european countries just don't know where to stop with all their theoretical training.
Sometimes your most important task is to fly the aircraft - right now- and not to complete a ton of calculations...or be distracted by other fancy things.
sub
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