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Too many RJ's & why Comair can't wait for the E170

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~~~^~~~

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Posts
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General Lee is going to be crowing at the coming market correction in RJ flying.

This is something that we wrote about on this board four years ago. RJ's can not survive in a low fare environment. They do not have mainline economics and make lousy replacements for mainline service.

http://www.aviationplanning.com/asrc1.htm

This completely explains why Fred Buttrell and Comair's MEC are seeing eye to eye on the E170's.

It surprises me that Delta is still taking any 50 seaters at ASA, or Comair.

~~~^~~~
 
History will show the 50 seat RJ as the killer of the high paid airline profession (At least an accessory to the crime). In another 10 to 15 years we will be back to nothing smaller than 100 seats or so in the big markets (ATL, LGA, BOS etc..) The only thing that will have changed is the pay scale and QOL of the profession.

Now lets see what the majic 8 ball says about tomorrows lottery numbers.......... :)
 
They toot their own horn a lot, but I'm inclined to agree with them.
 
Boyd/Embraer Advertisement

For all of you that are not paying attention, Boyd is a consultant that is paid by Embraer to trash any product other than the EMB-170/190. I didn't even need to see the boyd copyright at the end of the article to identify his BS. RJ's are NOT "expansion" lift like the article claims. Anyone that used to fly into cities like GSO or GRR or PIT or MCO or TUL or OKC or any other mid-sized city back in the mid to early 90's would have observed a ramp full of narrow bodies with a few turboprops. Today those same cities have three or four RJ's at every gate instead of narrow bodies. This is not expansion. And Boyd is the most useless aviation consultant on the market. Everytime boyd gets press with his EMB propagand he gets a little deposit in his checking account.
 
History will show the 50 seat RJ as the killer of the high paid airline profession (At least an accessory to the crime).

As I recall, the majors could have stepped in and put that flying under their contracts. If they had, Management wouldn't have the leverage they do now. I think you can already see how ALPA dropped the ball on this one and put this profession into an ALMOST unrecoverable tailspin.
 
Check the date on the following. Seems as though Buttrell is fishing with the new improved EMB 170 lure! Now where are those hungry fish?

Almost seems unethical or maybe intentional.:confused:


Embraer "buy," target price raised - update

Monday, February 07, 2005 1:47:34 PM ET
Banc of America


NEW YORK, February 7 (newratings.com) - Analysts at Banc of America Securities reiterate their "buy" rating on Embraer (ERJ.NYS). The target price has been raised from $33 to $35.

In a research note published this morning, the analysts mention that the company is expected to receive an order for 25 E170s from Delta Air Lines’ regional airline, Comair. The order could pave the way for further such orders for Embraer, the analysts believe. The current valuation of Embraer’s stock is attractive, according to Banc of America Securities.




Embraer Empresa | detailed quote - chart - all headlines previous
 
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I can attest to how great the E170 is as a pax on numerous occasions. The E170 is very comfortable vs. the CRJ-200/700/900. It's not even close in terms of comfort - bigger bins, bigger windows, more space and a "big aircraft" feel to it. Add to that better economics and the E170 is an easy winner - the E190 will probably be even better. Too bad JetBlue will pay its E190 pilots so poorly - it would be a great airplane to fly.
 
Stayseated,


I'm not disagreeing with you, but can you please support your claim about Boyd? Where can I find that information on my own?
 
StaySeated said:
For all of you that are not paying attention, Boyd is a consultant that is paid by Embraer to trash any product other than the EMB-170/190. I didn't even need to see the boyd copyright at the end of the article to identify his BS. RJ's are NOT "expansion" lift like the article claims. Anyone that used to fly into cities like GSO or GRR or PIT or MCO or TUL or OKC or any other mid-sized city back in the mid to early 90's would have observed a ramp full of narrow bodies with a few turboprops. Today those same cities have three or four RJ's at every gate instead of narrow bodies. This is not expansion.

Talk about not paying attention, you didn't read the article closely enough... he stated that the primary mission of the RJ in the early days was expansion for independent regional airlines. That mission was history by the time the CRJ first flew in '93 since the independent regionals were gone, sucked up by the legacy carriers as contract feeders. The legacy carriers then proceeded to replace mainline flying with RJs. It's right there in the article, read it again.

Also, you say that Boyd, as a paid talking head for Embraer, trashes any products other than the E-170/190... again, read the article. He bashes the 50 seat RJ, whether it's Canadair or Embraer... he dismisses them equally. I don't quite understand his love for the E-170/190 as a new generation 100 seater. Big deal, the 100 seaters are already here, they're called 737-5/600s, 717s, A-318/319s... I don't quite understand the thrill of the new larger Embraers unless their operating costs are really that low... NOT including crew costs.

Maybe the next time you launch into a paragraph railing against Boyd and his views you'll try reading the article first. It appears to me to make a lot of sense...
 
Boyd = lowecur
 
Yo OYS,

Your partial quote:

"Add to that better economics and the E170 is an easy winner"

My presumtion would be your judging it against the CRJ700. Yes, no?

If yes, can you provide supporting data for your claim? Quite honestly I don't know the answer so I am not disputing your claim, simply gathering facts. I would have to believe most pax would prefer the 170 over the -700 but the bean counters are the ones who drive the decisions.
 
blzr said:
As I recall, the majors could have stepped in and put that flying under their contracts. If they had, Management wouldn't have the leverage they do now. I think you can already see how ALPA dropped the ball on this one and put this profession into an ALMOST unrecoverable tailspin.

They could not win either way. The companies didn't want the RJ at the mainlines because they knew they could get kids to fly them for $15,000 right out of school, and pay the Captains what should have been F/O rates.

The pilot groups that held out and tried to get the RJ on the mainlines instead of contract carriers got blamed for making their carriers un-competitive.

Now we have every group out there blaming every other group and there is no stopping it. The chance to keep the RJ's at the mainlines went away with the first contract RJ.....the rest had to follow.

Look at the RJ rates in Canada...No comparison. But the RJ's are flying mainline up there.

IF the RJ had been held to mainline operations only, the companies would only want 1/3 of the total number out there right now. The simple fact is that the CASM on the RJ is higher than a 737 or Airbus, what makes them cheaper to operate is the poverty wages that managment can pay and still have them fly.

Run 2 RJ's to every one Bus. When carriers like Comair start to get their pay up to what it should be, they will simply be outsourced to another airline. Places like Republic and Freedom are just the beginning. Once United Pilots (or DAL, AA, and the rest) lost control of their flying, they lost the career.

Take someone like USAir, Passengers do not know it, but I rarely see a USAir airplane anymore. I see lots of airplanes in their paintjob....but to actually SEE a USAirways airplane is very rare unless you are in CLT or PHL. I spent the afternoon in ATL a while back. Saw six or seven RJ's and one airbus. So in that afternoon I saw 2 USAir pilots.....I have no idea who the rest of them were. Same with the rest of the legacy carriers. They no longer control their own flying, only Joe passenger doesn't have a clue....if it looks like a duck....must be duck.....or United, Or DAL..............

The Genie is out of the bottle......and he is whipping our A$$ with the empty bottle!
 
KeroseneSnorter said:
History will show the 50 seat RJ as the killer of the high paid airline profession (At least an accessory to the crime). In another 10 to 15 years we will be back to nothing smaller than 100 seats or so in the big markets (ATL, LGA, BOS etc..) The only thing that will have changed is the pay scale and QOL of the profession.:)
These airplanes fly under contracts negotiated by ALPA.

The RJ is a niche airplane and it has its niche. 50 seat jets will not go away - they will continue to fly where revenue supports it. Our Naples & White Plains - ATL flights are good examples. RJ will continue to serve thin routes where there is not any LCC competition. What Boyd is pointing out is that the revenue side of the airline equation has changed. This reduces the number of markets where RJ's make sense.

There are probably 2,000 or more RJ pilots than the market will support. I had hoped the E170 might be a bridge to get the furloughed mainline guys flying and the excess 50 seat pilots some future security as well - however, ALPA has failed to lead labor in that direction.

I do not share Boyd's unbridled enthusiasm for the E170. Much of this boils down to economics and the E170 is a higher cost airplane, particularly on shorter routes where it can be as much as 12% more expensive than a CRJ700. The E170 does better over longer routes and the E190 has better seat mile costs all the way around ( more seats, duh ). This has a lot to do with economics, at least for now. When a city gets E-170 and CRJ700 service then the passengers may make a choice to the larger airplane.

And passenger moods shift quickly. We used to hear nothing but praise for ASA's RJ's. Now passengers complain a lot about not having room for their carry on luggage and having to duck at the door. American's keep getting bigger and even the E-170 will get the same complaints the Folkker did back in the day.

I still think ASA should buy a bunch of ATR-72-500's, or Dash 8 - Q400's, for the short haul routes. It is difficult not to make money with a large cabin 66 passenger airplane that burns less than 350 gallons per hour while travelling 285 knots. The difference in block times going to ATL to CHA, AGS, VLD, MCN, or CVG, IIU, LEX, or GRR is less than 10 minutes and often about 2. If I were an airline I would trade 300 gallons of fuel for 120 seconds on every leg. If promoted for the new, big, quiet, efficient, airplanes that T-props can be, passengers might not mind. People buy Hybrid cars you know....

~~~^~~~
 
KeroseneSnorter said:
IF the RJ had been held to mainline operations only, the companies would only want 1/3 of the total number out there right now. The simple fact is that the CASM on the RJ is higher than a 737 or Airbus, what makes them cheaper to operate is the poverty wages that managment can pay and still have them fly.
Actually, crew expenses do not make that much of a difference unless the contract is really out there - like Delta's was. The 25 E-170's will come regardless of what the Comair pilots vote.

But, you are correct on the numbers. There will probably be around 3/5 to 1/2 as many 50 seat RJ's flying in two years. The 30 something seat RJ's have already been parked and the 40 seat RJ's will be re-fitted with 50 seats, or parked.

What worries me is that Delta seems to be swimming against the tide on this issue - particularly if they are thinking RJ's can replace MD88's, or even older generation 737's. Delta has to do more than reduce losses, they must make a heck of a profit to pay off the debt obligations and survive.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
I do not share Boyd's unbridled enthusiasm for the E170. Much of this boils down to economics and the E170 is a higher cost airplane, particularly on shorter routes where it can be as much as 12% more expensive than a CRJ700. The E170 does better over longer routes and the E190 has better seat mile costs all the way around ( more seats, duh ). This has a lot to do with economics, at least for now. When a city gets E-170 and CRJ700 service then the passengers may make a choice to the larger airplane.

~~~^~~~
So where exactly is this published information that the 170 is 12% more expensive than the 700? Unless you are getting this information directly from MAA or RJET (forget the pilots) mgt, then you are guessing. If you are referring to pure fuel burn, that is only part of the equation. 170 maintenance costs are documented to be 19% lower per hour than the 700.

If you go to Embraers Website (I know propaganda), you will see the comparison in seat and trip costs between the two on a 500 mile trip. Their trip costs are equal, but the 170 is about 14% better on the seat cost. Quite possibly the margins shrink if you get to around 300 miles, but realistically 500 miles will be the average.
 
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General Lee is going to be squealing with pleasure when he reads this article.
 
lowecur said:
So where exactly is this published information that the 170 is 12% more expensive than the 700?
Just an anecdotal opinion from someone who works at the FAA on the certification of the type and an article published is Aviation Week. I will try to find a link to an online version for you.

Simply, the E170 is a larger, heavier, airframe. However, the configuration and wing is more efficient.
 
KeroseneSnorter, I'm afraid you're right on this one... and with the likes of JO out there, it will probably never end either.


Fly
 
We did this to ourselves.

I posted the following on a thread regarding a UAL pilot who had "insulted" an RJ crew by suggesting that they fly one of those FRJs (farging RJs).

The RJ is a high cost product. What makes it attractive to airline management? Certainly not the economics of the AIRCRAFT. But the economics of regional airline LABOR. Pilots, F/As, dispatchers, mechanics, cleaners, caterers, gate agents... you name it. ALL working for substandard pay and benefits... but do the airlines charge any less for a ticket on an RJ? No.

The fact is that we did this to ourselves. Management put out their line and we as "professional pilots" bit. Here's my original post:

We need to be at least a LITTLE understanding of something. Up until just a few years ago there were a different kind of "regional jets" flying around the country.

"regional jets" like the DC9, Fokker 28, Fokker 100, Bac 1-11, BAe146...

Suddenly -- and it happened very fast in career terms -- a new breed of aircraft appeared on the scene. It doesn't really matter whose fault it was. Who dropped the ball... ALPA, Delta... it doesnt matter.

Now, all of the sudden, there were CRJs and ERJs and E170s, and FRJs. And in the same period of time those 65 seat DC9-10s and 65 seat Bac 1-11s and F28s, and 85 seat Fokker 100s.... well they all disappeared. And with them quite a few jobs.

The flying didnt go away. It was transferred to a lower bidder. Now you know and I know that those decisions are made by management. Not by line pilots. But its still a tough pill to swallow.

I'm not saying that excuses her behavior. It doesn't. But a little empathy from the so-called "regional" pilots wouldn't hurt matters.

After all. The RJ revolution didn't just hurt the career expectations of the DC9 pilots... it also hurt the career expectation of those RJ pilots who expected to go to the majors one day.

The more 50 and 70 and (god forbid) 90 and 110 seat "regional jets" appear, the fewer and fewer major airline positions will be available for furlough recall and hiring.

Management has duped us. They created a "b-scale career" right under our noses and that should be something that we can ALL agree on.

So the next time somebody says that in the crew van... maybe the proper response is just to laugh. Because, in more ways than one, she's right.... FRJs.


They DID, in fact, create a b-scale career. And what completely mystifies me is how quickly OUR paradigm changed! In a matter of a few years we went from regional pilots who were working to get hired at United and Delta and Northwest... to those who claim it was their boyhood dream to work for AirTran and Jetblue??!!!

We did this to ourselves. But WHILE we were doing it the market didnt simply stand-still. The customers continue to demand value -- lower prices, better service. Now management has pulled one over on us again. They're going to maintain that "profit margin" on the RJ by convincing pilots to fight each other over growth?

Why would pilots do it? Because there are still thousands of pilots out there who will jump through a ring of fire to get that 1000 PIC turbine NOW for the "privilege" of even APPLYING to work for an LCC making a FRACTION of what they would have earned only a few years ago.... and whats worse? Due to the "RJ revolution" there are fewer and fewer jobs available to go to. So most pilots will find themselves trapped at their b-scale airlines until they retire... oblivious to how they themselves destroyed their own career expectations.
 
Who tf cares, about which plane is better. All we are doing is beating an empty pinata waiting for candy to fall out that is stale, and sugar free.
 
Enough chicken little references. If you honestly believe that the RJ is the sole factor in less mainline jobs, you're not trying very hard. The scapegoats on this forum just keep growing and growing. I need a break from flightinfo for a while. I'm getting bitter by association. See you all in a couple weeks.
 
Boyd makes good comments and the article is interesting. A lot of it is even true. It's too bad that most of us seem to read Boyd's prognostications one article at a time (and that's part of his strategy). History, however, paints a slightly different picture. Go back in to history and read what Boyd was saying 10 years ago. At that time his "love" for the 50-seat RJ was pretty much the same as his current "love" for the 70-100 seat RJ.

If you read Boyd carefully and frequently you'll soon discover that his guru status is self-proclaimed. He's not really a "brilliant forecaster" of things to come in the future. Boyd waits for things to happen and trends to develop. He then cleverly jumps on the bandwagon and announces to the world, "see, I told you so". Subtle, clever, but not "guru". This guy isn't really a prophet, he's a grandstander who doesn't mind taking credit for what's already happened.

In this article he's right about a lot of things. That's not so hard, he isn't "predicting the future", these things have already happened. At one time (which he does point out) the sky was full of DC-9's and the "regionals" were Ozark, Allegheny (the real one), Piedmont (the real one), Trans Texas, North Central, North East, Huges Air West, Mohawk, Frontier (1), Mackey, etc. All these airlines are history, merged with each other, out of business or absorbed into the larger airlines, many of which have themselves dissappeared.

The DC-9's, BAC-111's and the F-28 all had their "run" and vanished. When first announced, they too were the "wave of the future" and in fact they were, just like the Viscounts and F27's that preceded them. However, the industry couldn't operate 3,000 of them yesterday any more than today's industry can operate 3,000 50-seat RJ's. Most of them outlived their usefulness and were replaced with MD-80 series and the 737 series. Their stand-alone operators dissapeared and were absorbed into the TWA's, NWA's, USAir, CAL, and DAL. EAL, Braniff, TWA, PanAm, all died on the vine by getting to the party too late with too little. The rest reduced their narrow-body fleets and expanded into 757's, 767, and heavy metal. It's the evolution of the species. Don't forget that only "yesterday" in time there were no jets at all. The heavy iron was the L1049G/H, DC-7, B-377. We don't see too many of those now, do we? In fact we don't see any at all.

This is not a stagnant business and it never has been. The DC-3 is historically perhaps the worlds greatest airliner. But, its time is past and we don't use it anymore. That the same thing will eventually happen to the 50-seat RJ is no surprise, should not startle anyone, and does NOT make Boyd into a guru predictor of the future.

Every airplane has a market niche at a given point in time. Markets change, time changes, technology changes and so do airplanes. This isn't new and Boyd isn't a rocket scientist. His big "secret" is that he writes what everybody (with a brain) already knows but just hasn't said out loud. Give him credit for having the courage to open his mouth but don't overlook the fact that he puts his foot in it as often as all the other "gurus". Donald Trump is a guru too (in another industry) but he's also been bankrupt more than once, often lives off his creditors money, and his latest gimmik doesn't really make him an "actor" of star quality. Boyd isn't much different.

The CRJ's and ERJ's are evolving, just like all the other airplanes before them. They were not designed to operate as LCC airliners. In fact the only LCC of the time was SWA and it flew 737's. It still does. There was no AirTran/Value Jet, and no JetBlue, which just turned 5. Time will tell if JetBlue is an ugly duckling that turns into a Swan or grows up to be just another Duck.

Embraer is doing well and their timing is good. They were late with the ERJ series, which gave Bombardier an advantage with the CRJ. The Canadians decided to "stretch" the CRJ because they saw the coming market, and that was the cheapest route. However, "stretched" airframes always reach their limits sooner than new airframes. Embraer couldn't "stretch" the ERJ because it was already a stretched and re-engined Brasilia. So, they built the 170/190 series from scratch. It will be a success, for the timing is right and it is a new airframe.

This isn't much different than what happened at Boeing vs. Douglas. The DC-9 was a "new" airframe. It's been stretched to the max, Douglas has been absorbed by Boeing and there will be no more DC-9 variants in the future. The so called 717 is nothing more than a modernized DC9-30 with new engines. It's history too. Boeing hit it luckier because the 737 was not really a "new" airframe. It was a "shrunk" (instead of stretched) 707. It has now been "stretched" back to a bigger airplane than the original 707 and we call it the 738. I doubt you'll see it "stretched" beyond that.

Canadair will eventually become the "Douglas" of today. The CRJ900 is much like the DC9-90. That's the limit. Either the Canadians build a new airplane or they're out of the market. Embraer has built a new airplane and they lucked out on their timing. It will sell, just like the 737 did.

Boyd is right about the impact of the "low fares" that we are now living with; in two ways. 1) The infra structure of the legacy carriers simply does not allow them to compete in the LCC market. 2) The 50-seat RJ's were not designed for that market and cannot compete in it effectively. He didn't bother to mention the price of oil, but that is a major factor in the CASM of every airplane. RJ's are not exempt.

The "big boys" have 2 choices; change the structure and find a way to stay alive while they do it, or give up and die. No matter how low the CASM of a triple 7 may be, you can't make money flying it from ATL to SAV. You also can't make money operating a 737 1/3 empty from JFK to MCO. Not when JBlue runs a 320 on the same route charging less than $100 bucks. And, not when you have a top heavy infrastructure that supports your long-range international stuff. Even Jet Blue knows that its A320 can't "make it" with the fares they charge on many of the routes they would like to fly tomorrow. Why do you think they're buying the EMB190? It's not because they like the way it looks. The "big guys" are using the small RJ's against the LCC's not because they're stupid, but because that's all they have right now. That too will change.

JBlue doesn't have any A320 FO's making $200 and hour, flying 50 hours hard time with an "A" plan on top of it. They have zero Captains with more than 5-years seniority and even they don't make $200 an hour, don't fly only 50 hours and have no "A" plan.

Today's "legacy" airlines will eventually operate the EMB170/190 series. If they don't, they'll have to give up most of their domestic route structure to the JB's and AirTrans. However, it is not likely that they will operate these airplanes at the mainline. Why not? Because no matter what they pay the pilots, they can't lower the costs of the rest of their infrastructure to match the LCC's. Therefore, they'll either get out of that market or they will operate these airframes at their subsidiaries and subcontractors.

Boyd's right about one two things. 1) It doesn't really matter what you call an airframe. "RJ" is a marketing term, not an airframe nomenclature. That's all it's ever been. There is no such thing as an RJ and there never was. It is a small airliner designed for a specific market. If that market goes away, so will that small airliner. 2) When one market disappears a new market always emerges in its place. That has happened already and it will continue. The EMB170/190 will be the airframe of choice in the early stages of that market. Why? Because it's the only game in town at the moment. Again, it's not rocket science and it doesn't make Boyd a guru. He's merely stating the obvious. It also doesn't make Embraer the "savior" of the industry.

318/319 and baby 73's are not the best airframes. They are being used because they were the only thing available at the time and some folks, like Frontier2 and Indy didn't have the option of waiting.

The socalled RJ was the "wave of the future". Boyd simply neglects to mention that is a 10-year old prediction and one that he made himself, just like all the rest. Ten years is a long-time in the airline business and we now have a new "wave of the future", which is the 70-110 seat market. The 170/190 will ride the top of that wave and the CRJ70/900 will fill in the gaps, for as long as the wave lasts.

Many of today's 50-seaters will be replaced by this new wave and there is nothing unusual about that. Yes, some of them will wind up in Arizona parked next to the DC9's and 737's and Fokkers. Nothing new about that. It is not "doomsday", it is normal evolution.

Those carriers that operate the 170/190 will ride the crest of this wave, whether we call them "mainline" or something else (like "regional"). Those that can't won't "make it big", but some will survive. There's always some room for the little guys.

We drivers simply need to do what we can to ensure that we are sitting in those seats and not somebody else. We don't need to be crying over the "death of the RJ", we need to be flying "the new RJ". Some of us will, some of us won't. Hopefully, there will be enough of both the small and the larger "RJ's" (that don't exist) for all of us to keep our jobs.
 
FurloughedAgain said:
I posted the following on a thread regarding a UAL pilot who had "insulted" an RJ crew by suggesting that they fly one of those FRJs (farging RJs).

The RJ is a high cost product. What makes it attractive to airline management? Certainly not the economics of the AIRCRAFT. But the economics of regional airline LABOR. Pilots, F/As, dispatchers, mechanics, cleaners, caterers, gate agents... you name it. ALL working for substandard pay and benefits... but do the airlines charge any less for a ticket on an RJ? No.

One of the key reasons management got such a hard-on for RJ's wasn't cheap labor, it was the ability to reduce the number of cheap seats available. The theory was that instead of trying to fill an MD88 (142 seats) with a bunch of low-yield tourists, you'd only offer an RJ (50 seats) and go after only the high yield customer. This strategy initially worked in the late 90's...particularly for Delta. Delta's yields skyrocketed on routes where RJ's took over and easily offset the higher RJ CASM.

But then the bottom fell out on yields. Trying to squeeze out the leisure customer didn't work anymore, since almost all customers are paying leisure fares. Ideally, DL (and others) should have begun shifting to larger, lower CASM planes to account for this. But there was one big problem.....mainline CASM (though lower than an RJ) was still way too high to operate in this new world. Instead of trying to fix mainline, management and DALPA simply stuck their heads in the sand. It wasn't really until last year that both sides finally woke up and did something.

However, DL now has a ton of high-cost 50 seat RJ's and only a limited number of routes that produce high enough yields to support them. Simultaneously, DL is in such heavy debt that large-scale procurement of larger planes is near impossible. DL is now caught in a tight position that will take years and years to work their way out of.
 
Otto said:
General Lee is going to be squealing with pleasure when he reads this article.


Squeel.....squeel......squeeeeeeel. What?


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Rj's have their niche. They are just the right airplane for the job on some of the routes that they fly. I think the biggest problem is what management has actually used them for.

The RJ has redefined what is considered a "regional pilots" airplane. The term RJ is firmly entrenched, and management has used it to weaken the MEC's at all the majors to the point that the mainline name holding pilot group can no longer control their own flying.

It has now moved to stage two where managment starts the process of upsizing the RJ until it is in effect a DC-9 or a 737-200 in their original seating configurations. The 200 originally held about 89 to 91 pax when it came out, and the DC-9-30 was right about the same. in 1985 it would have been impossible for management to fly an airplane the size of the 170 or 190 anywhere but mainline. After only 10 years of programming us to beleive that a 50 seat, mach .80 jet is a "Regional" it is a very easy step to add a 90 seater in the same definition. If it continues to it's conclusion, the only "mainline" jobs that will be left is the wide bodies.

Right now, the RJ pilot outnumbers the mainline pilot, there are fewer career mainline jobs out there and the number is shrinking everyday. The RJ pilots that used to think of an RJ as a stepping stone, must now begin to see the RJ as their career.

The only real solution would be to make it like it was in the "good ole days" meaning that if an airplane was painted in an airlines colors, it was operated by that airlines pilots. As a new hire with AA or DAL etc.. A pilot would start on an RJ and when seniority held a 737 they moved up. I think we are well beyond any possibility of that however, at least with the current airlines. Now if we end up with failure of all the current legacys, and the LCC's like JB become the powerhouse airlines, and if they continue the practice of keeping all airplanes in their colors on one seniority list, it might have a chance.

I think it was Segal that said publicly at an Air transport association meeting that the RJ is a "Union Busting" airplane. At least at USAir and UAL he has been proven correct. Time will tell at the rest of the carriers.

We as pilots are all to blame for it. starting in the late sixties when the "commuter" airlines first sprung to life. Very few forward thinkers looked far enough ahead to see those Shorts and BE-99's turning into 50 seat and now 90 seat jets. As it stands now, the only end result that we can expect is 737 and Bus sized airplanes topping out at right around 100K for the very senior guys.

Even now the majority of airline pilots cannot afford their own airplane. Most cannot afford a new car. My father flew a CV-580 in 1971 and made $45,000 as a 3rd year Captain. His new 1973 Caddy cost him $8000 in 1972(the thing looked like the Batmobile!!). A touch over 2 months pay. Fifty seat RJ 3rd year Captains are lucky if they can buy a Chevy (That looks like a roller skate) with a full years pay, and even the guys at the majors cannot match the buying power of their predecessors thirty years ago.

It is not the career of old, and it never will be again. Deregulation was the start of the down fall, but pilots are to blame for allowing much of it.Another 20 years and airline pilot will be just another vocational career, much like bus driving and carpentry.

HMM, long rant! Gotta go now, coffee is backing up in the resevoir! :)
 
General Lee said:
Squeel.....squeel......squeeeeeeel. What?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Wow, that sounded more like from The Deliverance and I'm sure that wasn't from "glee." And if it was....ewwwwww.

--Sky
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Actually, crew expenses do not make that much of a difference unless the contract is really out there - like Delta's was. The 25 E-170's will come regardless of what the Comair pilots vote.

But, you are correct on the numbers. There will probably be around 3/5 to 1/2 as many 50 seat RJ's flying in two years. The 30 something seat RJ's have already been parked and the 40 seat RJ's will be re-fitted with 50 seats, or parked.

What worries me is that Delta seems to be swimming against the tide on this issue - particularly if they are thinking RJ's can replace MD88's, or even older generation 737's. Delta has to do more than reduce losses, they must make a heck of a profit to pay off the debt obligations and survive.



Fins,

According to our VP of Flt Ops in a crew lounge meeting a few weeks ago, the older 737s and eventually the MD88s will be replaced with mainline sized aircraft, most likely Boeings from the 737-700 up. They are working with Boeing now on particulars, but are waiting to order when the prices eventually go down. He said that they would lease planes in the mean time when the others (the four aircraft types leaving within 4 years) leave the property. He also stated nothing larger than 70 seaters for DCI, and he is in charge.


Bye Bye--Geenral Lee
 
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General Lee said:
Fins,

According to our VP of Flt Ops in a crew lounge meeting a few weeks ago, the older 737s and eventually the MD88s will be replaced with mainline sized aircraft, most likely Boeings from the 737-700 up. They are working with Boeing now, but are waiting a while for better pricing. He said that they would lease planes in the mean time when the others (the four aircraft types leaving within 4 years) leave the property. He also stated nothing larger than 70 seaters for DCI, and he is in charge.

Bye Bye--Geenral Lee

The VP of Flt Ops will tell you whatever you want to hear.

You can already see the lie in the "waiting for better pricing" line. Boeing planes aren't going to get cheaper. In fact, if demand for planes picks up (as the airlines recover), Boeing will increase prices.

While I'm pretty sure the MD88's and 733's will be replaced by other mainline planes, the 50 732's probably won't. They'll mostly get replaced by E170's.
 
"If you read Boyd carefully and frequently you'll soon discover that his guru status is self-proclaimed. He's not really a "brilliant forecaster" of things to come in the future. Boyd waits for things to happen and trends to develop. He then cleverly jumps on the bandwagon and announces to the world, "see, I told you so". Subtle, clever, but not "guru". This guy isn't really a prophet, he's a grandstander who doesn't mind taking credit for what's already happened."

Surplus....it's a relief to know that I'm not the only one who has noticed this! It's been driving me nuts thinking that there are people out there who actually view this guy as the great prognosticator and visionary when in essence he is just as you've stated!

Great post!
 
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