To Scab Or Not To Scab

[realitycheck]

Here I go again- sticking my butt out in the breeze...

I am having a hard time blaming furloughed pilots who accept positions at Freedom, or the new Republic, or a jet-for-jobs situation.

Some of these people started working at an FBO washing airplanes when they were 16 just to get a discount on their private certificate... and never really had a job outside of aviation. Furthermore, some received an aviation science degree which from several friends who have it say it's worthless, even as a pilot (and for those you who are proud, relax, I'M NOT THE ONE saying it's worthless... I just reiterate).

So here you are- furloughed, not marketable in the aviation world or any world for that matter, and your fragile family life is even more strained because of money. And dipping into savings just to buy mac and cheese, and second-hand shoes for your two kids is getting old.

All of a sudden, a phone call comes in detailing the proposal- come fly for us, but were non-union and not liked in the industry.

Hey.. I'll stand shoulder-to-shoulder with all the airline pilots in the world... but at some point, I'm going to be selfish and protect my own interests first. Sometimes strength in numbers leads to a groupthink mentality (e.g. Bay of Pigs), and eventually leads to your demise... United Airlines anyone? Yeah they're united alright... and the herd is jumping off the cliff.

A friend of mine had a good suggestion- pilots should be like electricians, plumbers, etc. We have a national union or a "hall", and when airlines want to hire, they must go to the hall first. Just a thought...

 

[flyn96]

An older and wiser and now retired airline pilot told me 2 things not to do in your airline career, #1 cross a picket line and #2 buy booz with a credit card. I condsider working for one of these places like freedom just as bad as crossing the picket line. Everyone else is trying to raise pilot pay at the regional level. By working for these places that whor themselves out you are destroying everything the rest of us are trying to achieve.

One thing to consider, if you go work for Freedom, all the airlines that they undercut, those pilots will remember that YOU basically screwed THEM. Pilots don't forget things like that. So you had better hope that one of those pilots doesn't go to work and do the hiring at the airline you really want to be at or have wanted to work for all your life, because s/he may hold a grudge and if you come in wanting a job they might say, oh, you worked for freedom, we'll be in touch!

Something to consider

 

[PSL]

Just one man's opinion ...

In reverse order of the points you made ....

A national union ? This idea has been bantered since I started in the business more than a fews ago ...

Consider this ... given ALPA's current crisis state and the existence of APA, SWAPA and non-union carriers like JetBlue; what possible chance would there be unite this industry ? IMHO ... in the near term (10 years) ... absolutely NONE !!!

That having been said, and my previous assertion proven incorrect, explain how do you construct a national seniority list? By DOH ?

Ask the folks at UAL about their possible one list scenario based on DOH when USAirways was looking to be adopted.

Does this one list allow you to move from carrier to carrier without penalty?

Can a national contract ever be realized ? If so, product differentiation (full service v. low cost carriers) would have to perish. The end result of this scenario would be air travel being a commodity, no different than Light Sweet Crude ?

As far as your 'Scab' ideas ...

I strongly encourage you not to do it, consider it or align yourself with any carrier that promotes it.

This industry's members have long memories. Some of my contempories might want to chime in.

If you are old enough to remember CAL 1983, PanAm 1985, EAL 1989 and UAL 1985, I strongly sugguest you revisit the history.

Don't make the mistake of discounting the fact that PanAm, EAL are no longer in business.

You might be surprised how strongly some people treat you once you make it on the supposed 'non-existent' list.

As I said ... just one man's opinion.

 

[BE90CPT]

IF an ALPA furloughed pilot takes a job at Republic or Freedom do they have to give up their seniority number at their former airline?

IF you say NO, that makes them SCABs as far as i see
They are taking work away from already established commuter airlines.

 

[avratdwc]

Wow guys, just to re iterate what I said before, when I read these posts I wanna puke. I have a very close friend who is laid off, mortgage, 3 kids, one with a medical problem, and has some very hard problems rite now. He was telling me that Freedom wanted to hire him he said yes. Unfortunately I told him about this site, he looked, read all the things everyone was saying about Freedom and Republic, and declined the position in fear. His wife found out, left him and took the kids. All because people dont want to accept circumstances. Think about it, if he took the job he would keep doing what he loves (he does not do it for a paycheck) his spirits would be raised, family life would be better, benefits would come back etc. etc. etc. Instead he is where he is. I cant tell anyone what to do and it was a decision he made and has to adapt and live with it. Can someone please let me know how actions like this can be justified. All the folks that are in psoitions to "remember" let me know what you would do if someone interviewed, was questioned as to why they went to an alter ego company, and gave an explanasion that was acceptable. Would you look beyondand hire that person if they meet and exceed all requirments, or would you give him the thanks but no thanks. Also, does being a good pilot mean anything anymore or do you have to know unions, rules, probation issues, etc. Is there any joy anymore in going to the airport for work? I may be ranting and raving and I am sorry. Please, will some people chime in and let us all know whats going on with our dreams.

Peace,

Avrat

 

[Airpiraterob]

oh my....

realitycheck:

can of worms man.....can of ugly worms.
you might wish soon you had a can un-opener.

 

[ellsworb]

Hard to Understand

I just have a hard time watching or listening to ANYONE putting down another piloe (we are supposed to be a family, remember) for going to work to put food on the table for his family, to keep that roof hover his or her head, and to keep clothes on their kids' backs. Come on, this is a really tough time for everyone. Would it be in a furloughed pilots BEST interest to continue in his current state of unemployment? Call me selfish, but i think watching out for myself and my family comes first to anything else.

Just my .o2. Keep em centered

 

[Beechnut]

Sounds like your buddy's wife has problems with men with integrity. That's not the union's fault.

S.

 

[avratdwc]

Actually they decided to seperate to keep the kids from negative feelings due to money and trying to find a job. I stated it wrong earlier, sorry, they are still on good terms, they just had to part ways for a while to keep try and keep everything in check. I have to commend them for doing what is rite for the kids...

 

[j41driver]

... His wife found out, left him and took the kids. All because people dont want to accept circumstances. Think about it, if he took the job he would keep doing what he loves (he does not do it for a paycheck) his spirits would be raised, family life would be better, benefits would come back etc. etc. etc.

Sorry to hear about that but I just don't believe he doesn't do it for a paycheck. Sounds like a financial thing to me.

 

[avratdwc]

Your rite, I was just in a bad mood when I wrote it. He along with I LOVE to fly. I have the opportunity rite now to take a job outside aviation and make 3 times what I am doing now. I have to taken it because when I think about it, seeing planes taking off and landing when I am sitting on the ground would drive me nuts : ). CYA

 

[hyperboy]

Scab

I was jumseating the other day on Mesa. I can asure you that the only reason they have to let those freedom air scabs jumpseat are because of the CP of Mesa. Those guys have affected the lives of many Mesa pilots. While I do have feelings and feel bad for your friend .....is it really the unions fault? I would never do what the freedom guys are doing it is almost career suicide. Those guys should have thought of others and not there selfish greedy arses.Look around they are not alone there are plenty in the same boat.We need to stick together.They thought they were better than all.Now. I'd like to see them JS on anyone other than Mesa. They have manage to again display the lowliness and total disreagard for fellow pilots that a scab possesses. Sorry guy "choices have consequences, make the right choice." slippin the surlies......

"The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them"
-George Bernard smith

 

[Buckeye]

If an airline was truely "unionized" they would do what ever it takes to keep fellow union brothers employeed, it is a union run by the most senior pilots who want what they want first. If the union truely cared about everyone they would have stuck together and some pilots might still be employed.

 

[Browntothebone]

The Scab
A Poem by: Jack London (1876-1916)
"After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire,
he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab."
"A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul,
a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue.
Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles."
"When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and
angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out."
"No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in,
or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab.
For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself." A scab has not.
"Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver.
Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British army."
The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and
his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.
Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God;
Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country;
a scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class."

 

[mckpickle]

Wow guys, just to re iterate what I said before, when I read these posts I wanna puke. I have a very close friend who is laid off, mortgage, 3 kids, one with a medical problem, and has some very hard problems rite now. He was telling me that Freedom wanted to hire him he said yes. Unfortunately I told him about this site, he looked, read all the things everyone was saying about Freedom and Republic, and declined the position in fear. His wife found out, left him and took the kids. All because people dont want to accept circumstances. Think about it, if he took the job he would keep doing what he loves (he does not do it for a paycheck) his spirits would be raised, family life would be better, benefits would come back etc. etc. etc. Instead he is where he is. I cant tell anyone what to do and it was a decision he made and has to adapt and live with it. Can someone please let me know how actions like this can be justified. All the folks that are in psoitions to "remember" let me know what you would do if someone interviewed, was questioned as to why they went to an alter ego company, and gave an explanasion that was acceptable. Would you look beyondand hire that person if they meet and exceed all requirments, or would you give him the thanks but no thanks. Also, does being a good pilot mean anything anymore or do you have to know unions, rules, probation issues, etc. Is there any joy anymore in going to the airport for work? I may be ranting and raving and I am sorry. Please, will some people chime in and let us all know whats going on with our dreams.

Peace,

Avrat

Well remember that hiring boards are generally made up of line pilots. And those guys are just like all of us. If I ever decided to take off from flying and went to the desk you can bet that not one single Freedom guy would get past me. Same for Repuplic. See the bottom line is when some else is willing to put themselves before another group of people than it says something about their character. Lots of questions get asked in interviews. For instance I had to defend myself because when I interviewed DWC had a, well lets just say they were happy to find I did my flight training elsewhere. Depends who you get for the interview I guess.

On another note I guess you have to work at a regional and scrape by paying your dues to understand why the guys at CC air Mesa CHQ and all the rest feel they have a right to be pi$$ed off. I love flying too. There is no better job in the world. But thats what is is a job. A means by which to pay your bills and eat. When you sit at FL370 for 3 hours its hard to get as excited as plowing through the wild blue yonder at 500 feet. A captain I used to fly with as an FO used to look at me every time I got excited and say,"you'll get over it".

You know what, I did.

 

[Publishers]

What a joke

What a joke is all this we are some kind of brotherhood. This continual pontification. Screw them all and do what is best for you and your family. You owe absolutely nothing to the brotherhood.

 

[Speedtree]

I too love to fly.

We are not all a big happy brotherhood as one can see by reading this board and looking at the industry. However, we are all connected by the fact that we work in the same industry as pilots. Lets step back and look at the big pictures.

A good, solid home with love and a committed couple can raise kids well regardless of the amount of income.

I find it hard to believe this guy will make enough money working at Freedom to pay a mortgage and support his family. I don't make enough money working for Air Wisconsin to get ahead. I don't need sellouts to lower the bar for all of us. Taking a job at Freedom will only ensure that these bottom-feeders will be around that much longer.

In the long run it is just not worth it to cross a picket line or sell out for the moment. No we don't have a perfect system but a little sacrifice is worth the effort. You shouldn't get into this game if you don't know what you are getting into.

If more people would do the right thing the airline industry would be a much better place.

 

[avratdwc]

Well taken Speedtree, I appreciate you spelling it out instead of taking it as a personal attack. My personal take though in response is that yes, there is no way he could pay for everything by working there, however, the mental help that being able to get up in the morning and say "have to go to work" when the day before you were saying "I have to find a job" helps out alot.

 

[nimtz]

Re: What a joke

What a joke is all this we are some kind of brotherhood. This continual pontification. Screw them all and do what is best for you and your family. You owe absolutely nothing to the brotherhood.

Thanks Publisher. We all now you are essentially management so I would advice everybody to take his remarks with a SERIOUS grain of salt. He represents the guy who puts the screws on all of us in the first place, which causes scabbing to occur. Hey publisher in your expert CNN Analyst opinon please tell me if it was the scabs or Lorenzo who really saved Continental.

BTW, if the guy's wife seperates from him for his professional principles then she would of taken him for every penny he was worth sometime down the road. You guys wanna get sympathetic towards scabbing go ahead. Scabs are the guys who almost always end up at the bottom of this profession.

 

[machtuck]

Take the job, family comes first before anything. They are not scabs.. thats why ALPA has not posted any scab list. I strongly believe in doing whats right, crossing a line and leap frogging the system is wrong and I hate it, but; furloughed, medical bills, benifits, children in school. etc... do what is right for your family, thats where your loyality lies!