To be a Scab or not to be?

[jshaff]

I understand, and agree with those who say it is wrong to take a job that undermines everyone's efforts to revitalize pilot's pay throughout the industry. However, I am a student trying to "break into" the industry. What am I supposed to do? I don't want people to think I am trying to screw them, but I also want to fly. It seems, at this point, that my only option is to take a low paying job at the regionals. I don't care too much about the pay. Not to say I want to starve, but I am not looking to be rich. All I want is to fly.

Am I just being naive or is there an option? For those of you that complain... I am willing to listen and help. What do you suggest people like me do in this current situation?

-jshaff

 

[C425Driver]

To answer your question, you are being naive.

There will come a point in your career when you decide that your quality of life is much more important than the time in your logbook. If you scab or settle for substandard wages and working conditions, you will be undermining your own desire for a better lifestyle.

Scabs are the most despised group of pilots out there, and the people that held the line do not hesitate to let scabs know how much they are despised. Don't do it!

Do what you need to do, just don't do it at the expense of your colleagues.

C425Driver

 

[bobbysamd]

Low-paying regional jobs

Your comments imply a measure of desperation. I have news for you. There are a great number of people out there who try for years just to get interviews for one of those "low-paying" regional jobs and who would have jumped for joy just to be invited to class for one of those jobs. There are even those who pay out of their own pocket for one of those jobs.

First-year regional FO pay has always been horrendous. It was when I tried for years to get one of those jobs and it still is. It improves somewhat after the first year. In the meantime, you are gaining experience that will always be in your logbook and can lead to better things. The odd thing is that many pilots who took a regional job only to gain experience find that they like it and end up staying at their regionals.

At 400 hours, your best advice would be to build experience so you are in place to get one of these "low-paying" jobs at the regionals. At that point, you can decide if you want to take the job if you are so fortunate as to be offered one. Alternatively, look toward other areas of professional aviation where the money might be better. Once more, bear in mind that there are far more qualified applicants than jobs who would gladly take one of those "low-paying regional jobs" of which you seem to be doubtful.

You are not at the stage where you even need to think about crossing a line. However, if you want to read up on scabbing, I would recommend that you obtain Flying the Line, Volumes I and II, by George E. Hopkins.

Good luck with your plans.

 

[FSB99]

i keep noticing a serious misuse and misapplication of the word 'scab.' if you take a low-paying job, that's a choice you're faced with. you'll sleep in the bed you've made for yourself. but don't think of it as, and don't let anyone convince you that it is, scabbing.

the only way you can become a scab, is by taking a job with an airline, and fly at that airline, whose pilots are currently on strike. as of today, there are none on strike, therefore, you can not be a scab, even if you went to a pay for training, rent-a-seat type airline. your integrity may be questioned, but again, don't let anyone call that a scab.

 

[enigma]

I understand, and agree with those who say it is wrong to take a job that undermines everyone's efforts to revitalize pilot's pay throughout the industry. However, I am a student trying to "break into" the industry. What am I supposed to do?
-jshaff

js, You don't seem to understand the meaning of "scab". A scab is a strike-breaker. Pure and simple. He crossed a valid picket line in order to take a job from someone who felt strongly enough about the poor pay and or job conditions to walk away from that job. He did so according to the legal guidelines governing strikes.

A scab can't get the job under his own merits, so he steals it when the rightful jobholder strikes for improvements.

The scab screws everybody, himself included.

Working for less, or for little of nothing doesn't help wages, but it isn't scabbing.

enigma

sorry for duplicating fsb

 

[jshaff]

Ahhhhhh! Thank you. I am as ignorant as they come. (hence the amount of hours I have aquired.) I have not had it explained to me in a clear way. People tend to use the term scab in a way that describes someone that takes a job for a salary that is below average. Therefore, lowering the "pay Bar".
Sorry for my ignorance.
Knowing that, I agree whole heartedly that no one should be a Scab. Who would?

Very respectfully,
jshaff

 

[FSB99]

Who would?

i know it's probably easy for some folks, just starting out in this crazy game, to confuse the meaning of the term scab. like i said before, that term is being thrown around way too much lately. as wrong as the original Freedom concept was, those folks still could not be labelled scabs. they've got their name on a different list, though, so no worries. ;-)

anyway, as to your question, "who would?"

the answer should be, no one. but, that's obviously not the case. true, there are some scabs out there who scabbed because that's just who they were, their personality, their morals, and values, etc. they're also the type of people who would watch an old lady at the bank drop a 20 dollar bill, pick it up and walk away feeling good about it. after all, it was the old lady's fault for dropping it in the first place.
then there are those who struggled with the decision. some felt cornered, were unable to lose a paycheck due to circumstances at home, and maybe had no other means of income. these poor folks made a decision, and now have to live with it. despite their past, and reasons for it, they will still, always and everywhere, be known as scabs.... even if a certain union 'forgave' them.. it's like, cutting your arm.. it will heal, but that scar will always be there.
so, who would scab? hard to say until faced with a strike. one's true personality tends to show itself in moments of crisis.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

the only way you can become a scab, is by taking a job with an airline, and fly at that airline, whose pilots are currently on strike. as of today, there are none on strike, therefore, you can not be a scab.

Not true. If you are an employee in a group which has an established union, and you refuse to be a member, you are as good as a scab. Merrian-Webster agrees. If you are the 1% taking advantage of the hard work and sacrifices, both monetarily and emotionally of those who represent you and refuse to be a member, you also fit the definition. But it's true, taking a job at low wages that were agreed upon by a group, while not the most desirable thing to do, is not scabbing.


Main Entry: [1]scab
Pronunciation: 'skab
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Swedish skabbr scab; akin to Old English sceabb scab, Latin scabere to scratch —more at SHAVE
Date: 13th century
1 : scabies of domestic animals
2 : a crust of hardened blood and serum over a wound
3 a : a contemptible person b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms
4 : any of various bacterial or fungus diseases of plants characterized by crustaceous spots; also : one of the spots

Pronunciation Key

© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
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[mar]

And who else would?

Who else would scab? The guy who thinks the strike is for no good reason.

The guy who doesn't believe in it.

The unions go nuts sometimes. Sometimes they loose their perspective and their ability to reason.

Anyone remember the great AA sickout?

What was the result of that? The pilots had to repay the company. Great idea. Where do I sign up for that one?

 

[enigma]

Who else would scab? The guy who thinks the strike is for no good reason.

The guy who doesn't believe in it.

The unions go nuts sometimes. Sometimes they loose their perspective and their ability to reason.

Anyone remember the great AA sickout?

What was the result of that? The pilots had to repay the company. Great idea. Where do I sign up for that one?

Mar, I don't disagree that some may honestly disagree with the strike call, but I have to ask this: what happens to most scabs? In most cases, the employer sacrafices the scabs as soon as they work out their union problem. I see no reason to help out an entity who will have no loyalty to me. Even if I didn't agree with the strike, I wouldn't cross the picket line mainly because I have no delusions of scabs being anything more than bargaining chips in the process.

My detractors don't like my stand on unions, (as I've said before, the company thinks I'm too union and the union thinks I'm too company LOL), but my company (Spirit) was union before I got there. I think that the union is sometimes blind to common sense, but I wouldn't think about crossing a line that the majority of my brothers voted to erect. Like I said, the union predates me and while I might disagree with certain decisions, and stir up the muck to change things, I just don't think that my disagreement gives me the right to cross a line. I'd rather quit and fly a Baron at night than I would get in the middle of two players who would sacrifice me in a heartbeat. That's where a scab finds himself, caught between two behemouths that will step on him without blinking an eye.

I'm rambling now, so I'll stop with this statement. Scabs are not treated any better by employers than the union pilots that management destests so I see no reason to get between union and management.

Besides, there's no honor in taking someone else's job just because you don't agree with his reason for striking.

enigma

 

[Draginass]

The AA "sickout" was not a legal strike nor officially sanctioned by the association. It was in a sense a "wildcat" response to percieved injustices by the company on the Reno Air acquisition. The company did not (nor would it have even been economically advantagous) go out and hire "replacement" (scabs) to replace the pilots out "sick." Since it was not a legal strike, a court ordered the association to pay company losses during that time.

Now, if instead, the labor contract was open for negotiation and the pilots' legally struck the company IAW Railway Labor Act rules, and the company goes out and hires whatever dregs they can find to fly "struck work", then those replacements would be "Scabs" with all the ugly connotations that they would richly derserve.

A lot of ignorant or vindictive "blame-the-unions-first" people want you to think that striking is a knee jerk union reaction, sort of a avenue of "first" resort. Nothing could be farther from the truth. A strike is the dead last resort that any union person want to resort to. During a strike you don't get any compensation, other than what the union may have as a strike fund. In contract negotiations, workers have more influence on events by staying in their positions and controlling the pace and effectiveness of the operation . . . . like they do everyday.



An illegal strike is stupid and opens you up to legal redress. It's noteable also that just recently AMR had to pay the APA some $23 million for willfully violating the labor contract with dis-allowed outsourcing.

 

[mar]

Perfect responses

Enigma and Draginass--Thanks for those responses.

I hesistated before posting my previous comments. I wanted to expand the discussion beyond the usual "A scab will take $20 from an old lady" rhetoric and hopefully place it right in the middle ground of real life. Both of your responses provided personal perspective and background to the discussion.

But I still feel a strong "us vs. them" theme in both of your posts.

What if I'm a union member and I don't believe in the strike and I stay at work. Everyone agrees I'm a scab. Everyone agrees I'm a bargaining chip. But I'm not replacing anyone *else's* job.

It was MY job to begin with! I just want to continue working.

My problem is I have strong negative reactions to 'group think' and the 'herd mentality'. I've seen these things go nuts.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

What if I'm a union member and I don't believe in the strike and I stay at work. Everyone agrees I'm a scab. Everyone agrees I'm a bargaining chip. But I'm not replacing anyone *else's* job.

It was MY job to begin with! I just want to continue working.

Mar, your statement is true. However, the person who scabs a job that was theirs to begin with is no less destructive to the collective bargaining process than the scab who came in off the street. It doesn't matter whether they had the job before they crossed the line, the effect is the same...undermining what little strength the employee group has in unity.

It's the responsibility of the labor group to elect responsible, level-headed, clear thinking, rational leaders and to stay involved with the process so that frivolous work actions don't occur. Nobody is going to agree with every work action, but not agreeing with a voted-on work action is not grounds to undermine the process. It just ain't.

 

[Draginass]

Mar - Keep in mind that if you join a union company, it's that union contract that sets the level of your compensation . . . something that you're fellow pilots probably paid for blood sweat and tears in years past. Unless it's a closed shop where you MUST belong to the union, as a non-union member, you'll get the same compensation, but will have to pay dues to compensate for collective bargaining on your behalf. To me, I shun non-members among my own company workers. I've also found that almost all of them I've flown with aren't very pleasant people to work with and generally have a chip on their shoulder . . . at least my unscientific personal observations. You certainly won't see me having dinner with them.

For you to waltz into a union shop, then say "screw you," I'll do what ever I please, is ungrateful, disengenuous and will make you very unwelcome. As a union member you have a voice. It's called a vote. Do I agree with everything the union does .. . no. But I'll support my union brothers in whatever collective decision that they make. If I can't, I'll quit the company and go elsewhere. Many very young and idealistic pilots have a utopian idea of what WORKING as a pilot is. Like the world in general it's a tough and unforgiving place. After a few years you will see the corruption and mis-management at many companies . . as well as in your own union. You'll see yourself screwed by schedulers and management that will simply disregard your work contract, then say "screw you, grieve it if you don't like it." You'll see the union perhaps make concesssions to your work rules and wages that you don't agree with.

This is the real world and remember in the world of commercial aviation, the word "commercial" comes before "aviation." It's about money, Mar, not flying. If you want it to be about flying, get a good job that will pay you a lot more than the piloting profession, and buy yourself an airplane.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Enigma and Draginass--Thanks for those responses.


What if I'm a union member and I don't believe in the strike and I stay at work. Everyone agrees I'm a scab. Everyone agrees I'm a bargaining chip. But I'm not replacing anyone *else's* job.

It was MY job to begin with! I just want to continue working.

My problem is I have strong negative reactions to 'group think' and the 'herd mentality'. I've seen these things go nuts.

Don't generalize the sheep mentaility. if you do, then your logic applies to the law of the land. If the gov't (i.e. the people) thinks 56 mph is speeding and you don't are you justified?

The fact that your fellow pilots have collectively decided to strike means they are willing to give it all up for something better. It is not your job anymore, until everyone agrees to go back to work. Your reasoning is unjustified.

Now let's get back to the definition of a scab. Jack London has clearly defined a scab as anyone who is willing to undercut his fellow man. If you are selling meat for $5 a pound and I sell it for 4.99 a pound then I am a scab. If I am willing to fly jets for $5/hour cheaper than you then I am a scab. This is socialism in its purist form. The problem is how do we advance. If I negotiate a higher rate does that make everyone else scabs?

However, in the capitalistic USA, we define a scab as someone who crosses an organized picket line. The outcome of scabs in Flying the Line I and II should be enough for anyone with an ounce of intergrity to stay unified.

jshaff-if you are trying to break into this industry then you need to create a plan for yourself. Are you going to take the first job you can get regardless who it is for? Many times, it is not what you fly, but rather who you fly for. Therefore you should decide what kind of company you want to work for and obtain the standard required to get that job. In other words, define yourself and find a company that matches your standards. Much easier said than done, but well worth it.... good luck.

 

[mar]

Some good points, but puh-leaze...

...Many very young and idealistic pilots have a utopian idea of what WORKING as a pilot is. Like the world in general it's a tough and unforgiving place. After a few years you will see the corruption and mis-management at many companies . . as well as in your own union. You'll see yourself screwed by schedulers and management that will simply disregard your work contract, then say "screw you, grieve it if you don't like it." ...This is the real world and remember in the world of commercial aviation, the word "commercial" comes before "aviation." It's about money, Mar, not flying. If you want it to be about flying, get a good job that will pay you a lot more than the piloting profession, and buy yourself an airplane.

Hugh--Roger that.

Draginass--Give me a little credit, ok? I ain't so young. I'm certainly not idealistic. In fact, I've been screwed over, forgotten about, left behind, fired, furloughed, violated, busted, sent up the river and down the creek.

I'm no white-glover.

And I'm not exactly a union member. (Technically represented, but no contract).

At any rate, I appreciate your comments but give me a little credit, ok?

 

[Publishers]

problem

The problem with all this of course is that these things do not take place in a vacumn.

Todays companies cannot stand a strike and without regulation your enemies are on your stopped carcus like vultures and the next thing you know you do not have customers at all. Look at what the slowdown did to UAL's business customer base.

If the government had not bailed them out at 9/11, the fact is that we would have about four less national airlines right now and people would be climbing over the virutal bodies of their brothers to get on board the survivors.

There may have been a time and place for an ALPA somewhere along the line, but , at this point anything more than a company based union is counter productive. The safety aspect is in fact regulated by the FAA and so it become economic hostage taking over wages and work rules.

If the old legacy carriers had done thier jobs correctly, the new LCC's or whatever you want to call them would never have got started. They got started because their were aircraft available, crews available, and an industry that ===and certainly not blaming this all on pilot contracts-- that had priced itself out of where people were willing to pay. They had refined their yield managment programs to where it was maximizing the revenue stream, however, any small glitch in the customer base would be fatal.

 

[enigma]

Enigma and Draginass--Thanks for those responses.

I hesistated before posting my previous comments. I wanted to expand the discussion beyond the usual "A scab will take $20 from an old lady" rhetoric and hopefully place it right in the middle ground of real life. Both of your responses provided personal perspective and background to the discussion.

But I still feel a strong "us vs. them" theme in both of your posts.

What if I'm a union member and I don't believe in the strike and I stay at work. Everyone agrees I'm a scab. Everyone agrees I'm a bargaining chip. But I'm not replacing anyone *else's* job.

It was MY job to begin with! I just want to continue working.

My problem is I have strong negative reactions to 'group think' and the 'herd mentality'. I've seen these things go nuts.

mar, I started out in the professional pilot business a man with very strong "right to work" leanings. I am still a strong conservative and most people would put me in the management camp because of my core ideals. I say that to say this, I didn't start out believing that management was against me.

Management has EARNED my distrust. (note. I've been treated better Spirit than I was treated in the corporate world, so I don't mean to be airline specific with my distrust for management) I have respect for specific managers, especially the Chief pilot group at Spirit, but management in general doesn't seem to understand that pilots are not airplanes. We are human beings, individuals, not cost units. Getting back on topic,,,,,I feel strongly that most pilots do NOT start their tenure at any company with the idea that it is "us vs them". It is only after repeated reamings that we begin to get an attitude. I could list tens, if not hundreds, of areas in which management abuses pilots, but I won't. Most of us know what they are.

Next topic. Unless you were on property before the union came in,,,,,,,,, it isn't your job. I don't entirely like that either, but it is the case. Like I originally posted, the union was there when I hired on. My choices are: get elected and change things, lead a decertification effort, or do what the union says. I would hate like heck to be told that I had to strike, but I most certainly would if the majority of my co-workers decided to take that action.

On a related topic. I've spent a lot of time with strikers from EAL and CAL. Not one would ever vote to strike again. They realize that the only place you have any real impact is the cockpit. I'm sure that each would honor a strike, they just would not support it during the decision process.

Finally, Why doesn't the average manager see the benefit in treating people like people, as do the managers at SWA and JetBlue? I firmly believe that those company's success is due mostly to the positive way in which their employees go about their jobs in the knowledge that management is working with, not against, them.

regards,
enigma

 

[TonyC]

i keep noticing a serious misuse and misapplication of the word 'scab.' if you take a low-paying job, that's a choice you're faced with. you'll sleep in the bed you've made for yourself. but don't think of it as, and don't let anyone convince you that it is, scabbing.

the only way you can become a scab, is by taking a job with an airline, and fly at that airline, whose pilots are currently on strike. as of today, there are none on strike, therefore, you can not be a scab, even if you went to a pay for training, rent-a-seat type airline. your integrity may be questioned, but again, don't let anyone call that a scab.

In addtion to what Hugh offered about defining a scab, I'd like to add the Cathay scenario. While Cathay pilots were not allowed by law to strike, they were allowed to conduct an industrial action, and to declare a hiring ban. During that ban, any pilot who accepted employment would be regarded as scabs.

 

[SCT]

Hi guys and gals.
I'm a long time reader, first time poster.

This is a great site. It's the only aviation website I look at on a regular basis. I love the good cross section of pilots- 747 pilots, military, corp. drivers (me), cargo, fractional, fresh CFIs and everyone in between..... It's great because we all share the airspace!

But Jshaff brings up a pet-peeve of mine. First off Jshaff, this is not a personal attack on you. I wish you the best in your young career. At least you are asking questions about your career. BUT, why are 400 hr. pilots asking about flying in the regionals?

I don't care how many ratings you've aquired in the last year. Or if you aquired the ratings under 61 or 141.

I see this all the time!! (And we are not talking military training). Why do these guys and gals think the "industry" owes them a job with a com/ multi/ instru. and 500 hrs? To me this is scary! Theses pilots should be out "learning" to fly in the real world by CFIing, aerial surveying (me), a/c demo, a/c delivering, entery level cargo/ checks, or whatever.

But there are very few pilots, that are qualified to be in a regional jet or corp. jet with 1,500 hrs. I don't want anyone to starve (worse then regional fo pay), and everyone wants a step up in their career, but come on, pilots have to pay their dues and least learn to fly in the real world.....

Am I right or wrong?

SCT

PS- I'll be the first to admit that I was hired in the hiring wave in the mid 90's. But I at least had 2,000 hrs and a lots of real world entry level exp.