To all Mesa Hopefuls

[rickair7777]

Like it or not jet regionals are the new timebuilder jobs in this day and age. In the "Good Old Days" you built time in a 310 hauling checks. That's not the way it is anymore and the new guys didn't reinvent the system. They're just starting out in a system built by the current occupants. They didn't start Mesa. They just want to get started in the business. If you can start out with a better job than Mesa, good for you. If not, Mesa will do until you are qualified enough to move on to a better job.

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!!!! Regionals USED TO BE stepping stones....but nowdays with 90 seat RJ's flown for 19 seat wages they are replacing the airplanes and eliminating the mainline jobs that those pilots aspire to! Checkhaulers DO NOT replace mainline jobs (plus they learn a lot).

Mesa is NOT a stepping stone!!! It is a career destination, but the vast majority of those young SUCKERS don't understand that! JO is playing them BIG TIME...they're all willing to do anything for turbine time, but 8 years down the road they realize that that doesn't get them anything anymore. BTW, JO doesn't like 10+ year pilots on his property, he wants you to leave at that point. If you get hired by a major, great, but most don't...and JO wants you to leave anyway! (he usually gets what he wants). I know dozens of mesa pilots who just hung it up, went back to Peoria and applied for dad's old job at the local mill. Or got married and became full-time moms.

My last year at mesa saw my seniority move less than ten numbers/month...out of 1900 pilots. That means mesa captains are not leaving...which means captains are not getting hired by majors! After you factor in retirements, medicals, military leave, and career changers maybe 1-2 captains/month were getting major jobs!

 

[jetalc]

Johnny O. and others like him can rest assured that there is an endless stream of guillible idiots out there to work their fingers to the bone to make them rich with comparitively little to show for it.

Mesa is the cash mecca for management.

So, are you at Eagle, that "other" cash mecca for management? Nice contract, guys - what is it, 15-20 years long? Phenomenal flowthrough. Even better flow-back. Great negotiating. Definitely have room to talk down on Mesa guys. Believe me - the industry isn't dead, except for the spoiled punks who got into it for all the wrong reasons. I like money, I like time off as well - but it's not why I decided to fly for a living. I now have both, and it was working at Mesa that helped me to not only get there, but also to appreciate a great company when I was hired.

"Comparitively little?" (your spelling, not mine) Compared to whom? Eagle? Don't make me laugh. I'm tired of know-it-alls chiming in on the Bash Mesa Parade simply to make themselves feel like they're someone. Eaglefly - do you really believe your own drivel? You sound like a parrot of every other pilot who has recently had their toys taken away from them. I'm sorry your life isn't as fulfilling as you had hoped it would be, but don't blame others for making the choices they have made.

 

[jobear]

Thanks for the effort Circle K and jetalc but some poeple refuse to see the light even when you smack upside the head with it. I do like the bit about Eagle's stellar contract.

I'm outta here.

Jobear

 

[eaglefly]

So, are you at Eagle, that "other" cash mecca for management? Nice contract, guys - what is it, 15-20 years long? Phenomenal flowthrough. Even better flow-back. Great negotiating. Definitely have room to talk down on Mesa guys. Believe me - the industry isn't dead, except for the spoiled punks who got into it for all the wrong reasons. I like money, I like time off as well - but it's not why I decided to fly for a living. I now have both, and it was working at Mesa that helped me to not only get there, but also to appreciate a great company when I was hired.

"Comparitively little?" (your spelling, not mine) Compared to whom? Eagle? Don't make me laugh. I'm tired of know-it-alls chiming in on the Bash Mesa Parade simply to make themselves feel like they're someone. Eaglefly - do you really believe your own drivel? You sound like a parrot of every other pilot who has recently had their toys taken away from them. I'm sorry your life isn't as fulfilling as you had hoped it would be, but don't blame others for making the choices they have made.

My life is MORE fulfilling than I hoped it would be. Although my flying produces 100K/year, I've found two other business that provide as much if not more enjoyment. My latest "toy" (an RV) is coming along quite nicely, thank you.

Surprisingly, Eagle's "stellar" contract is actually now one of the better ones and leaps and bounds above the Mesa garbage................which is where the industry is going. The downward slide is just getting started.

But my point is that most of the up and coming pilots of today won't ever see a major (nor ever see 100k) and will have to make a career out of deadbeat operations such as Mesa............now THAT is something that has a lack of fulfillment about it.

 

[Caveman]

rickair7777,

I'm not defending Mesa and you are correct that regionals are the career goal for many. They also happen to be the starting point for the majority of new pilots and for a lot of them it's the best way to build time for a better job at a major carrier. Larger aircraft being flown at regional carriers is NOT the fault of pilots looking for work. It is 100% the fault of mainline pilots that allowed outsourcing through nonexistant or weak scope language.

It's been said many times but it's true. Business 101 is in play when you have more applicants than there are jobs. Until Mesa can't fill their new hire classes there will be no incentive to drastically change their MO. All I'm saying is it's unfair and unrealistic to ask the new guys not to take these jobs when there aren't many other reasonable alternatives. There are better regionals to work for but they don't hire or even interview everyone that applies.

Put youself in the new guys shoes. You've applied at all the regionals that are hiring including a couple that aren't necessarily perfect. You get called by two. You interview at both but only get offered a job by one of them. The one that offered you a job is #4 on your list of 5 places that you would work for. Do you pass on the job because somebody else that doesn't even work there doesn't like the contract? I didn't think so.

 

[jbDC9]

Wait a sec......Mesa makes you pay $50 just to interview!? That's just an insult. You are supposed to be a professional, not a snivelling bottom feeder who wants to bow and scrape for a job; and an employer is supposed to host an interview courting prospective employees. It's a fuggin two-way street, people! THIS IS WHERE THE CONCEPT BEGINS TO GET LOST.

They want you to work there; you want to work there. Simple. And conducting interviews is the cost of doing business.

Ummm, before you blow a gasket, think back a few years, around early '98 when American was hiring... yep, the almighty, more money than God AA wanted $100 bucks sent in with the application package. 100 bucks, not for an interview, that was just to apply.

It ain't just Mesa doing this stuff... although $50 for Mesa does seem a bit steep.

 

[CopilotDoug]

My life is MORE fulfilling than I hoped it would be. Although my flying produces 100K/year, I've found two other business that provide as much if not more enjoyment. My latest "toy" (an RV) is coming along quite nicely, thank you.

Surprisingly, Eagle's "stellar" contract is actually now one of the better ones and leaps and bounds above the Mesa garbage................which is where the industry is going. The downward slide is just getting started.

But my point is that most of the up and coming pilots of today won't ever see a major (nor ever see 100k) and will have to make a career out of deadbeat operations such as Mesa............now THAT is something that has a lack of fulfillment about it.

So EagleFly,

What do you care about the industry if you have two side jobs? It sounds like you're financially set. Maybe I interpreted your post wrong, but if I was making $250k a year outside of flying, I'd s***can the flying and work the other job and wouldn't bother looking ack at flying.

 

[svcta]

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!!!! Regionals USED TO BE stepping stones....but nowdays with 90 seat RJ's flown for 19 seat wages they are replacing the airplanes and eliminating the mainline jobs that those pilots aspire to! Checkhaulers DO NOT replace mainline jobs (plus they learn a lot).

Mesa is NOT a stepping stone!!! It is a career destination, but the vast majority of those young SUCKERS don't understand that! JO is playing them BIG TIME...they're all willing to do anything for turbine time, but 8 years down the road they realize that that doesn't get them anything anymore.

This is one of the main points to be considered in the "regional" discussion. All of North America is now the "region" and a whole lot of people will never move on to that job at the major. The last airline I worked for saw almost no movement at the top of the seniority list. The only movement was junior guys bailing out for other jobs. The senior guys I talked to used to say that they could not afford to go to any other job because they had been stuck there too long to justify getting out. Couldn't take the initial pay hit/house/kids/reasonable sched(no reserve)/blah. Pretty short-sighted in my opinion, but true. So they weren't leaving. And this "wait 'till next month" thing that mgmt would hand down about bad sched. and crappy trips lasted for well over a year ebfore I decided to bail. The wait and see will see you in years not months or weeks. And when is it too much?

I was embarassed to tell people what I did for a living toward the end because I was so ashamed of how crappy it had all become(sorry to get technical there). Most people don't know the details, but if they did would you be proud to tell them what you do for a living?

I felt like a sucker. Constantly selling my life to a bunch of people who really didn't like me to begin with. Add it all up and you're going to spend a little more than 7 months of the year in a bed that's not yours. Away from familes/birthdays/holidays/funerals/soccer games/girlfriends/you get the picture and for what? 20K 1st year? 30K 2nd and beyond until the elusive upgrade. Then what?

These old guys that were too greedy? They understood all of the sacrifices that were being made;missing their kids growing up, etc. They understood that their families deserved some compensation for doing without a parent/spouse MOST of the time. They negotiated for decades to make this a job that you could balance with a family and respectable lifestyle. Too greedy? I think that maybe they realized something that is lost on all of us.

This took on a bit of a different tone than it started with. Sorry to ramble.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!!!! Regionals USED TO BE stepping stones....but nowdays with 90 seat RJ's flown for 19 seat wages they are replacing the airplanes and eliminating the mainline jobs that those pilots aspire to! Checkhaulers DO NOT replace mainline jobs (plus they learn a lot).

Somebody gets it. A small DC-9, 737, A318 is the size of a 90 seater Canadair or Embraer so called "regional" jet.

 

[cjs]

The last airline I worked for saw almost no movement at the top of the seniority list. The only movement was junior guys bailing out for other jobs. The senior guys I talked to used to say that they could not afford to go to any other job because they had been stuck there too long to justify getting out. Couldn't take the initial pay hit/house/kids/reasonable sched(no reserve)/blah. Pretty short-sighted in my opinion, but true. So they weren't leaving.

Nationwide seniority anyone? Or pay based on experience? It wouldn't be perfect, but just about anything would beat the current seniority system.

 

[kansas]

People keep saying that going to Mesa, one has the chance to build 1000 turbine multi PIC quickly, and then get out. While this may be true with respect to the flight time, are they really going to be able to "get out?" And by "getting out," I don't mean a lateral to another (even if it is a "good") regional. Are many Mesa folks going to major, career-type gigs? That, my friends, is the big question, and therein lies the value (if any) of going to Mesa.

 

[pgcfii2002]

Welcome to the free market boys. As long as there is a supply of low time pilots who'd rather work for crap wages at a regional than crap wages CFI'ing, the bar will continue to be lowered.

 

[Kingair1181]

PGCFII hit the nail on the head. As long as there are low time pilots willing to do it cheaper than the next guy we will be stuck in this cycle. The one small bright spot is that, at least as of the last 1/2 year of so, you are starting to see a slow down in the number of pilot learning to fly. Not sure if this reduction is mostly people learning to fly for the fun of it or also a reduction in people who hope of one day flying for a living.

 

[greg52083]

Who do I see about getting the 100bucks for my over 4 bet?

 

[lowlycfi]

Who do I see about getting the 100bucks for my over 4 bet?

Check is in the mail....

 

[rickair7777]

rickair7777,

I'm not defending Mesa and you are correct that regionals are the career goal for many. They also happen to be the starting point for the majority of new pilots and for a lot of them it's the best way to build time for a better job at a major carrier. Larger aircraft being flown at regional carriers is NOT the fault of pilots looking for work. It is 100% the fault of mainline pilots that allowed outsourcing through nonexistant or weak scope language.

.

No, regionals are NOT the career goal for many. only a very few. The vast majority of those who pay the money to get into the industry expect to go to major airlines. The problem with that is that there are far more RJ captains than major airline jobs, probably about 100 to one! The regionals are fast becoming the involuntary career stop for many...

Every gel-headed punk at the local airport thinks HE's the sky-god who's going to land that 777 job by age 28...but in reality he's just another piece of regional cannon fodder. There MANY, MANY pilots with far better qualifications and connections in and out of aviation lined up for the job he wants. Being a lazy-8 legend in your own mind will not alter the hard reality: The FEDEX jobs are going to go to the F/A-18 driver with 1000 hours over Iraq and Afghanistan and an annapolis ring, or the kid who's uncle is the chief pilot in memphis. The sooner all the newbies realize that they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives at a regional, the sooner the regionals will improve to the point where you could stand to do it for 20-30 years!

Back when they were called commuters and you only stayed 2-4 years it was OK to work for food stamps. That was a valid philosophy BACK THEN. Management has done an exemplary job of perpetuating the idea that entry-level pilots need to work for peanuts in order to get a big payoff later...and if you mistakenly assume that the payoff is STILL THERE, well hey, that's your problem bud!

 

[rickair7777]

People keep saying that going to Mesa, one has the chance to build 1000 turbine multi PIC quickly, and then get out. While this may be true with respect to the flight time, are they really going to be able to "get out?" And by "getting out," I don't mean a lateral to another (even if it is a "good") regional. Are many Mesa folks going to major, career-type gigs? That, my friends, is the big question, and therein lies the value (if any) of going to Mesa.

No, they are not getting major airline jobs. Toward the end I was moving up fewer than ten numbers a month (out of 1900 pilots). After you account for retirements, military leave, medicals, and career changers that leaves 1-2 pilots/month getting major jobs.

Part of the problem I think is that mesa hired LOTS of folks without degrees who are now stuck...bad for them, bad for mesa, and VERY bad for junior pilots who are waiting in line behind all those mesa-for-life types.

 

[Caveman]

No, regionals are NOT the career goal for many. only a very few. The vast majority of those who pay the money to get into the industry expect to go to major airlines. The problem with that is that there are far more RJ captains than major airline jobs, probably about 100 to one! The regionals are fast becoming the involuntary career stop for many...

Every gel-headed punk at the local airport thinks HE's the sky-god who's going to land that 777 job by age 28...but in reality he's just another piece of regional cannon fodder. There MANY, MANY pilots with far better qualifications and connections in and out of aviation lined up for the job he wants. Being a lazy-8 legend in your own mind will not alter the hard reality: The FEDEX jobs are going to go to the F/A-18 driver with 1000 hours over Iraq and Afghanistan and an annapolis ring, or the kid who's uncle is the chief pilot in memphis. The sooner all the newbies realize that they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives at a regional, the sooner the regionals will improve to the point where you could stand to do it for 20-30 years!

Back when they were called commuters and you only stayed 2-4 years it was OK to work for food stamps. That was a valid philosophy BACK THEN. Management has done an exemplary job of perpetuating the idea that entry-level pilots need to work for peanuts in order to get a big payoff later...and if you mistakenly assume that the payoff is STILL THERE, well hey, that's your problem bud!

O.k, bud. I still don't get where you're coming from. In one post you insist it's a career airline and the next you claim that it isn't. Where are you at on this?

I don't care one way or the other if a guy goes to Mesa for a career or to build time, it's none of my business. More to the point is none of yours either. In the absence of a better choice I have no problem with a new guy starting out at Mesa or any other regional. Where else are they supposed to work? FedEx? SWA? NetJets? IBM corporate gig? I notice you had no problem working for Mesa.

 

[rickair7777]

O.k, bud. I still don't get where you're coming from. In one post you insist it's a career airline and the next you claim that it isn't. Where are you at on this?

I don't care one way or the other if a guy goes to Mesa for a career or to build time, it's none of my business. More to the point is none of yours either. In the absence of a better choice I have no problem with a new guy starting out at Mesa or any other regional. Where else are they supposed to work? FedEx? SWA? NetJets? IBM corporate gig? I notice you had no problem working for Mesa.

??? Mesa in current form is not viable as a career because of the sh*tty treatment and managements desire to NOT have career pilots. However it is an inadvertent career deadend for many pilots, nobody goes there PLANNING to stay, it just happens. New pilots contemplating mesa (and a few other regionals) need to understand what they are getting into...they might be willing to pay dues for a few years, but few want to pay dues for LIFE. If more beginners understand these things and vote with their feet, then mesa will have to change to survive. This is about educating pilots, not bashing pilots.

I got into mesa without any knowledge of what it was all about...my mistake, but hopefully any CFI who reads these boards will be better informed. I wised up fast, along with a whole bunch of other people...

I have a HUGE problem with pilots going to mesa...they fill JO's ranks with essentially free labor for at least a year and help him perpetuate the toilet-bowl spiral of the industry. These pilots screw themselves and me and you in the long run. If they simply selected a slightly better regional it might force mesa to improve a bit to attract pilots. Maybe we could find the bottom at last and start moving back up.

 

[Regul8r]

sounds like it's boiling down to a weak union.

 

[LAFrequentflyer]

To all the Mesa hopefuls, I have one question: Why? I would really like some insight here as to why someone would willingly choose Mesa. Some honest answers I have had in the past are 1) I'm already financially independant, and 2) They have a base near my home. Any insight to help enlighten a regular guy would be appreciated.

A start in the industry. 121 PIC time for moving on to better places.

-LAFF

 

[rickair7777]

A start in the industry. 121 PIC time for moving on to better places.

-LAFF

But mesa PIC doesn't seem to help a lot of folks for whatever reason. The only person who should got to mesa is someone with VERY strong connections at a major who just needs the minimum turbine time to meet the hiring requirements at said major.

 

[Kingair1181]

Rickair - problem is you don't even need the PIC turbine time anymore to get on at some majors (Continental is down to 1500TT 500 Turbine SIC - and sadly yes a few guys are gettign in every class with times just above that who know the right people). So now you have a bunch of 23 year olds who are only going there to get the 500 hrs!!!!! of turbine time at Mesa and moving on.

The industy is clogged full of good pilots at the regional level now for around 5 years because since 9/11 few, if any, of the majors have hired many pilots. Hopefully, with the age 60 rule in effect and a HUGE number of pilots at all the majors forced to retired within the next 2 to 8 years you'll finally start to see more and more vertically movement at the regionals as far as seniority goes.

 

[greg52083]

::gets another bag of popcorn::

 

[rickair7777]

Rickair - problem is you don't even need the PIC turbine time anymore to get on at some majors (Continental is down to 1500TT 500 Turbine SIC - and sadly yes a few guys are gettign in every class with times just above that who know the right people). So now you have a bunch of 23 year olds who are only going there to get the 500 hrs!!!!! of turbine time at Mesa and moving on.

Very true, but very few and far between. I know one myself, but I also know about 200 other guys that don't have that going for them. If you do have a highly placed connection at a major that hires RJ right seaters, I would expect you to go for the turbine time. But everybody else needs to realize that the regional IS going to be your final destination and plan accordingly.

The industy is clogged full of good pilots at the regional level now for around 5 years because since 9/11 few, if any, of the majors have hired many pilots. Hopefully, with the age 60 rule in effect and a HUGE number of pilots at all the majors forced to retired within the next 2 to 8 years you'll finally start to see more and more vertically movement at the regionals as far as seniority goes.

I sure as hell hope so, but age 65 is coming soon, there are plenty of guys still on furlough, and the terrorists have NOT given up (and neither have the oil companies). Old military axiom: Hope for the best, Plan for the worst. Everybody in this business needs to have life at a regional as their backup plan...and they need to make sure it's a life worth living.

 

[dash8driver]

Who do I see about getting the 100bucks for my over 4 bet?

the websitemaster




.

 

[siucavflight]

You guys really are somthing. Every major, regional, fractional has certain people that dont like it, it is all personal choice, I have a few friends at Mesa and they all love it, one is at the company for just a year now and holding a very nice line out of ORD the other less than a year and just upgraded to PIC on a Dash 8 out of JFK, the place seems stable, and they are growing very fast, now they have 10 737-800's on order to fly their Hawiian routes.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

I know what the corporate world is really all about.. regardless of the magical world some pilots here think it is. Long hours for low pay and bumbling management is the mantra of corporate america... sound a little bit familiar??

Exactly!! I know many people working outside of aviation, in a majority of the cases, making no more than a regional captain, and they are working 50 to 70 hours per week. The 40 hour a week job almost no longer exists.

Anybody I have ever told the issues the airlines are having to, have always had the response, "that is happening to everbody". They are right. It is not just the airlines. Many of these people would love to make even $100K per year, a salary pilots would complain about. Even with the pay cuts, pilots are still making more than a majority of Americans.

 

[BoDEAN]

Rickair - problem is you don't even need the PIC turbine time anymore to get on at some majors (Continental is down to 1500TT 500 Turbine SIC - and sadly yes a few guys are gettign in every class with times just above that who know the right people). So now you have a bunch of 23 year olds who are only going there to get the 500 hrs!!!!! of turbine time at Mesa and moving on.

Off their website ::

• 1,500 hours fixed-wing total flight time
• 1,000 hours fixed-wing PIC time, or 500 hours PIC time and 500 hours SIC time in a turbojet
• 1,000 hours fixed-wing turbine time

 

[ttuite]

Once you do get hired at a regional somewhere, you'll figure it out. It takes about a month or less of actual line flying to figure out that flying a jet really isn't that fun.


Dude,
If you really believe this then you better run very fast away from this profession. If you are not totally in love with flying then this job will literally kill you. You will be eaten from inside by your own bile. I have been flying for Mesa for over 6 years and I still love flying the jet as much, or more now than I did when I started. You have less that a year, and you don't like it? I feel sad for you. Even with the challenges of working at Mesa I still love my job and the last 6+ years have just blown by. I work with some great FO's and flight attendants on a daily basis. Yes, sometimes I deal with an occasional ramper, gate agent, or passenger who is challenging. That is part of the job and when you can meet and resolve those challenges then it is even a satisfying part of the job. You are the only person who can affect your happiness. Why is it that people in even the poorest regions of war torn Africa smile and laugh once in a while?
To answer the earlier question, I work at Mesa because they hired me in July of 2000. These folks gave me a job which was the fulfillment of a dream. I truly love what I do for a living. Would I love it more at another regional? Maybe, maybe not, but I doubt that I would be any happier. I will leave Mesa only for a better job. Other than SWA or CO I haven't seen any on the horizion for a long time.