To All Major Airline Pilots

[blzr]

...Except SWA, JB, and Airtran....

Management has found that there are alot of people in the aviation world that will fly for almost nothing. It seems that the "Race to the Bottom" will not stop. If it continues at it's present rate you guys will have the most to lose.

One day in the near future, some contract carrier could approach your CEO or Board of Directors and say " We can fly those 757's (pick your type) for CHEAP. Our pilots work for nothing." Do you think that your contracts or scope will mean anything to those at the top? My guess is no.

Right now, management is looking for the contract carrier that will undercut either their Wholly Owned airlines, or any other contractor. Basically saying our flying goes to the lowest bidder.

Also, Mtx is being farmed out to the lowest bidder. Over half of the Mtx at the majors is curently outsourced, and more projected. (USA Today money section June 17th)

What's next? Hey guys and gals, You are. Contracts won't matter, management will find a way around it. Scope, yeah right. I really don't believe that any of the current scope clauses currently in effect will stand up in court. <Give 'em HELL CMR>


Maybe everyone in the industry would be better off if you guys would help stop this "Race to the Bottom". Just calling it as I see it.

 

[crosscut]

...Except SWA, JB, and Airtran....

...Just calling it as I see it.

Except that neither JB nor Airtran is a major. But I'll take it as a compliment.

Just calling it as I see it.

 

[blzr]

Neither i s U.S. Airways, but I included them anyway.

 

[crosscut]

Ouch, must be that (un)friendly rivalry - let me guess - Piedmont or Allegheny?

 

[mach none]

Nice flamebait.

Are you one of those guys that is going to stab us in the back to get our flying? Then complain about the fact you don't make any money to pay your bills, no retirement and you have to pay the company for your initial training and recurrent training.

 

[blzr]

Mach None, you sound like you definately have your head in the sand, if not somewhere smellier. If things keep going the way they are, don't be suprised if you lose your job to someone that is willing to fly that big Boeing for $50/hr. If it doesn't stop now, it will effect you too. It won't matter anyway. You'll be flyin' an RJ anyway if you work for Airways.

 

[Falconjet]

Race to the bottom - you won!

Blzr: Who are you talking to? Are the major airline pilots to blame, or those that are willing to fly for the "contract carrier"? What do you want the major pilots to do, quit their jobs?

WTF, over.

 

[jetblue320]

...Except SWA, JB, and Airtran....

Except that neither JB nor Airtran is a major.

JB is not a major today, but stay tuned, they will be in 2004. A "major" is defined as $1B (billion) of gross revenue a year. JB has earned over $500 million as of 6/30 making it right on track for major status by year's end.

But I think you don't care anyway. This thread is confusing.

 

[pilotyip]

$50/hr for 757 Capt?

No managment in their right mind would pay that little for a 757 Capt if they were planning on staying in business for any lenght of time, they could not retain those pilots and their training costs would kill them, unless the pilots taking those wages signed training notes, then they would only retain a couple years, low wages will not work in a hot market which will return by 2007. That is ony $7/hr more than we pay an entry levle DA-20 F/O. Good management is intersted in the same you are "staying in business" and wages too high are a problem and wages too low to retain pilots is also a problem. Market forces in supply and demand will determine what the right wages is, and ultimately the public buying tickets will determine what the right wage is.

 

[blzr]

JetBlue320 I was not insinuating that JB, and SWA are not Majors. You all are as much a major as any airline out there. I thought you had to lose a $Billion to be a major these days.

The whole point of this thread was to see if any of the majors had given any thought to the future of the industry. Some of you have, some have not.

If management thinks they can balance the books by taking concessions from $19k/yr f/os and then giving they flying to even less paid contractors then watch out. You have a much bigger bullseye on you. The race is stil on. Who will get to the bottom first?

 

[mach none]

Mach None, you sound like you definately have your head in the sand, if not somewhere smellier. If things keep going the way they are, don't be suprised if you lose your job to someone that is willing to fly that big Boeing for $50/hr. If it doesn't stop now, it will effect you too. It won't matter anyway. You'll be flyin' an RJ anyway if you work for Airways.

I don't work for the U. But this battle to the bottom has to stop with pilots like you. Draw the line and hold it. If my job goes the way that you seem to desire, what kind of industry will this become. SWA, Jetblue and the other LCC are great, but they cannot be everything to all people ( no slam intended). The mainlines won't die, we are just in the process of morphing into something else.

Is your goal to fly an RJ for the rest of your career making 50hr with no retirement? Or worse, fly a 757 (you pick the type) for 50hr. Nice career. I spent 15 years and 6 airlines getting to this point and have been battling your attitude every step of the way. Scabs, PFT and "hey mister, I will fly your a/c for less then that guy. I just want the time." Grow up and demand to be paid the way you deserve.

respectfully,
Mach

 

[blzr]

That's exactly what I was getting at Mach. The point of this thread was to say the race won't end unless you at the top with the power acknowledge the fact that there is a real problem. I don't want to take your job, I want to move foreward with my career and maybe I will be fortunate enough to be in your position without the I have mine, you go get your own attitude.

One more thing. The majors are morphing into something else. Unfortuately for the vast majority of us we will be flying RJ's, or Dashs', for a very long time, if not for the rest of our careers. That is why I brought up the pay issue.

 

[mach none]

That's exactly what I was getting at Mach. The point of this thread was to say the race won't end unless you at the top with the power acknowledge the fact that there is a real problem. I don't want to take your job, I want to move foreward with my career and maybe I will be fortunate enough to be in your position without the I have mine, you go get your own attitude.

One more thing. The majors are morphing into something else. Unfortuately for the vast majority of us we will be flying RJ's, or Dashs', for a very long time, if not for the rest of our careers. That is why I brought up the pay issue.

We are trying to hold the line. But when RJ operators come to the mainline and say we will do it for X dollars and then the next operator says we can beat that...It is a split S into the ground. Then the pilot group approves the new wage scale (Skywest, Mesa, etc.) because it means jobs and upgrades so the guys can get experience. Problem is, there won't be a mainline to get the experience for. Everyone will be flying an RJ or 737 for $50hr (Skywest).

Of course the mainline management is happy with this. They get pilots for nothing and they have us fighting amongst each other. I believe this is called "Divide and Conquer."

You are slitting our throats. I just don't get why people coming into the industry are in such a hurry to tear down the house that our fore fathers worked so hard to build.

 

[Nandu]

The point of this thread was to say the race won't end unless you at the top with the power acknowledge the fact that there is a real problem. I don't want to take your job, I want to move foreward with my career and maybe I will be fortunate enough to be in your position without the I have mine, you go get your own attitude.

I think the problem was acknowledged about a decade ago when scope clauses started to address the outsourcing of flying to codeshare partners with large turboprops and RJ's.

How do the "majors" stand tall on the pay issue when across the room is a bankruptcy judge getting ready to toss everything out the window?

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Way To Go BLZR!!

Blzr,

Fellow B.O.T.D. (brothers of the dash)

It's good to know I'm not the only one that feels that way!
Just try to remember the paradigm these major guys
are working under. In their day, the "commuters",
their word not mine, were like the training grounds, where the poor civilian unwashed plebian morons learned to fly.

The "filtration" process allowed only the brightest and the best
to rise to their lofty ranks. Thereby allowing the deserving to experience ice cream sundays at 370. And who cares about ISP ABE CVG SBY ASH etc etc- WE DON'T WANT THAT FLYING anyway!!! (way to go RANDY eeF-eeng BABBITT)

Well guess what, the paradigm has changed.

But instead of what should have happened, and might have
happened, if Piedmont (originial) and Henson would have followed PanAm and PanAm Ex. (pilots on the same list)

errr...that's an entire thread unto itself-

where was I? Ahh yes, instead of the top (majors) bringing up the pay and benefits of the bottom, (commuters) we have the opposite effect, your race to the bottom, anology-

So basically we are screwed, until we have

1) an FAR that says any 121 pilot must be ALPA
or on a national list (I was raised to never say "can't")
2) and / or a flight crew minimum wage tied to seat number
3) and / or Woerth quits signing Mesa 90 seat jet rates
that allow the flushing effect to continue.

Once again, you are dead on in your analysis my brother-

Whoops! Gotta hurry to make sign in !
I'm kinda' looking forward to that Ice Cream!

(for a few more months, if I'm lucky)

FF-

 

[K.I.S.S.]

FlyingFarmer,

Well, someone finally said it! A NATIONAL PROFESSIONAL AIRLINE PILOTS UNION. I have been waiting to hear that. Before I go any further let me say this is just a pet theory that I have developed while I camp out at as "commuter". Also, I am not pro-union nor am I against unions. When you need one, you need one, and when you don't you don't!

I think we need ONE. We, being ALL us pilots who are watching our pay, lifestyle and benefits crumble. My pop is not a pilot but happened to retire reciently from a unionized profession. There is only ONE UNION there. When you start (WITH ANYBODY!) on to the list you go. If (when) you get laid off (that is the term the "stupid blue collar types" use) you get the NEXT job opportunity in the industry to come back. AT YOUR CURRENT LEVEL OF SEINORITY AND PAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, I said "stupid blue collar types" sarcastically because all of us smart ass pilots run around congratulating ourselves on our success on a regular basis. Face it we are a pretty "proud" group. But! We continually compete with one another for better this and more that. Not to pick on anyone but in my brief time as a professional pilot I had the pleasure of watching United and Delta pilots go head to head to see who was going to be TOP GUN (er DOG). Not even a thought to getting together to form a more cohesive labor party.

And this problem of regionals "taking" the mainline flying away would eaisly be addressed if it was one MASSIVE list. More safety for us and more fair options for all. Just imigaine it...... Oh CRAP! I've been "furloughed". Well as soon as ANY airline hires again, I'm back at my previous pay and seinority.......

Sorry, I was dreaming there. Dreaming because we are naturally competitive (to our own demise at times). Great on the flight deck, BAD from a COLLECTIVE bargaining standpoint. Lets face it we are all a bunch of greedy, cry -baby, spoiled, over-paid (especially me at a regional) under-worked loud mouths.


Or maybe not................

ONE List!

Lord, help us if we don't do it. They are smarter and meaner than we are.

 

[mach none]

One seniority list would be tough. How would you propose doing it?

Grandfather those at the airlines? What if you got furloughed, would keep your recall rights to that airline while the new seniority list shakes itself out? Or would you go to where ever your seniority could hold. Tough deal to sell. I also believe management would not go for that either. How would they hire and fire. Each airline has their own personality and they would lose that.

These are just a few of the questions I could think of while mowing my grass

Mach

 

[Ty Webb]

Actually, what I have said on here several times already, is that we need a "Guild".

Your seat/pay would be tied to years of industry service, and the wages set by the Guild of Professional Pilots would be what you are paid, regardless of which airline you were flying for.

The airline calls the Guild, and says "Hey, we ned 170 B717 FO this year and 170 PIC's. That's it. No discussion about pay, benefits, etc. . . . . . . it's already set by the Guild.

If a company downsizes, you get the next open seat that you qualify for . . . . . you make your bid based upon where you want to live and work.

For example:


Year of service:

1-2) CFI.CFII
3 ) MEI or 135 SIC
4-6 ) 135 PIC/ 121 SIC
7-8) 121 T-prop PIC/ 121 Jet RJ FO
9-10) RJ PIC or narrow body FO
11-13) Narrowbody PIC or widebody FO
25-+ widebody PIC

 

[DAL737FO]

So in this world it would benefit the person to bypass college and accept the first flying job they could get that would get them on the national list. Don't get me wrong it took me 11 years to get my college degree and I really don't put as much stock in that block on the application as some people do but the block is still there. What about military guys? Do they get a number when they graduate flight school?

 

[ivauir]

hmm nice pipe dream

Where would military pilots fit into this "onelist".